The Power of Positivity on Set with Cathi Singh

Key Takeaways

• Makeup artists have a special skill, to create a bubble of calm in an otherwise chaotic situation. In a photo studio, this is a valuable resource that should be protected.
• Positivity isn't always being chipper and upbeat, a big part of developing this skill is to have incredible self-awareness and know how to read the room.
• Even for the most positive person, a bad day can be really bad. Have tools to help get you through, such as removing yourself momentarily from the situation.
• Expectation setting can go a long way toward protecting an attitude of positivity. Ask the right questions and feel confident that the answers are clear.
• Ego is one of the biggest killers of positivity on set. The crew must all work together to achieve their goals, there is no room for ego.

Links & Resources

• Cathi Singh on the web: http://www.cathisingh.com/
• Cathi Singh on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cathisingh/
• Cathi Singh on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cathi-singh-2a463513/

Full episode transcript

Daniel Jester:
From Creative Force, I'm Daniel Jester and this is the E-commerce Content Creation Podcast. In the last episode of this podcast, we talked a bit about the imprint that the crew itself makes on the content. That was our last episode with Karen Williams. This week, we look at that same idea from an emotional perspective and what a powerful tool a positive attitude can be on set. My guest is Cathi Singh, and I've actually had the honor of working alongside Cathi on set. Her joyfulness and positive attitude is so incredible it's almost infectious, and Cathi is aware of this. She's worked to develop this part of her personality. We discuss how self-awareness can go a long way towards maintaining that level of positivity and we also discuss what she considers to be the number one positivity killer when working on set.

Cathi Singh:
Ego is the biggest positivity killer, honestly, on set. It is. Because it tells that crew, which essentially to me, a crew is like a body. Everybody has a part, an arm, a head, da, da, da. You know what I mean? Everyone's part of the crew. If you are going to be the ego, I think that you just take away, you tear away that part. We're not a group anymore. You've taken any positivity away. We don't want you to think that you are now more important than the arm. Why is this arm more important than this arm?

Daniel Jester:
A quick note about the audio quality of this episode. We had some technical issues with our recording platform when we went to record this episode and we had to use our backup plane. Unfortunately, that means you may notice the audio quality was affected a little bit, but I think you will still get a lot out of this conversation with Cathi Singh nonetheless. With that, let's take a listen.

Daniel Jester:
This is the E-commerce Content Creation Podcast. I am your host, Daniel Jester, coming to you on this... Wow, what day is it? Wednesday morning, from my studio in Riverside, California, which I mentioned because my guest is also from Riverside, California. Very excited to introduce my very good friend and podcast guest for this episode, Cathi Singh. Hi, Cathi.

Cathi Singh:
Hi, Daniel. Thank you so much for having me. This is really exciting.

Daniel Jester:
It is an absolute pleasure and joy to see your face. And speaking of the term joy, we invited you on our podcast today to talk about joy and positivity and the power of that on set. Cathi, you are a makeup artist. If we weren't both already married, we have a weird kind of rom-com meet cute situation where we met at a vintage market and I happened to be working in creative production for E-com and you're a makeup artist for everything, film, TV, but also, I've booked you a whole bunch for E-commerce photo shoots and video shoots. It was the serendipitous moment where we both have these jobs, but we both happen to live in Riverside, which is kind of outside of the sphere of influence of LA a little bit, and I was looking for a makeup artist a few years later.

Daniel Jester:
It was actually, I think, a few years later, and my wife reminded me that we had met and that you were a professional makeup artist and so you had availability and we booked you for some of our clients and our clients loved you so much that you still work with them, even though we don't anymore, which is totally fine. I'm not bitter at all. Just kidding.

Daniel Jester:
Not to speak too much, and take up too much of the talking time on the front half of this, but, and not to over compliment you Cathi, I'm not trying to embarrass you or anything, but one of the things about you is that you're an incredibly positive person and everybody likes you when they work with you on set and not to come across as very pessimistic, but there's a lot of value in that from a producer or production manager's perspective, to have somebody who is so positive and so easy and fun to work with that literally everybody likes on set and I wanted to have a conversation with you about that, about the power of that on set and how we can protect that and use that to our advantage to make sure that we are getting the work done.

Cathi Singh:
I think your attitude, the minute you walk in the door has something. Everyone feels your energy. I just feel like being a makeup artist in this certain department, there's a magic energy. Not to get all [inaudible 00:04:19] on you guys, but there is something that we do carry that we present to the team and that we do present to this crew. And if you think about a crew or production set, you may think of yourself as analytical or a numbers or producer. You're still a creative. So we're thinking about we're putting all these creative energy in one place and saying, make something amazing in eight hours or 10 hours or whatever, but you automatically have an influx of energy and emotions that you may not have in certain offices. People might be more sensitive in certain areas, get kicked off in certain areas and you just kind of have to navigate that. So the first five minutes of being on set is also introducing yourself, but it's also kind of feeling out, what's the jam today? What's the jazz going on on set?

Daniel Jester:
And part of your role in particular, because being a makeup artist you are really in the talents' personal space and so you have to have, almost from a professionalism standpoint, you don't want to come in being like a dark cloud. Or even if you're having a bad day, you can't really let on because we had a conversation, the podcast episode that got released just before we're recording this one was actually about diversity and that diversity of the crew and the imprint of a diverse crew on the content itself.

Daniel Jester:
And the same goes for the relationships that are happening on set behind the scenes. There's an authenticity to the content if everybody's having a really good time and there's a magic to that when you're on set. And if things aren't going great, exceptional talent can certainly play the part, but there's not that underlying joy and sense of authenticity in the content sometimes, if things aren't going great. So protecting and preserving that positive attitude, and especially, this was something that I realized in working with you, Cathi, that the relationship between the makeup artist and everybody else on set is really unique because you become the touchpoint for everybody. And I found myself, when we were in productions together, often coming to you to figure out if there was a problem, because you're talking to everybody and you're there and you're hearing from the talent and they trust you.

Cathi Singh:
That's a great point. The trust. I take that portion of that relationship extremely seriously. My mentor told me when I first started, picked up a brush, said, makeup will only be 20% of your job. And I was like, that doesn't make any sense. And she has proven herself right on every single set. I am a therapist. I am a secret keeper. I am part producer. I help coordinate things. You run troubleshooting for stuff. So essentially, I nurture. I think that being a makeup artist is also very specific energy and a specific need to take care of people. My joy is to take care of people. I really love to make sure that people are okay, that they're comfortable, that they feel in their zone. I am the energy. The last person, if you think about it, think about a live event or a photo or a TV show or something, the very last person before that curtain opens, who touches them? Me. What face do they see? Mine. And then they go out in this crowd. So if I'm like, "Ugh. So annoying. Whatever, you look fine."

Daniel Jester:
Smoking a cigarette.

Cathi Singh:
She didn't give crap about my face. Yeah. I'd be like, you guys. But if I'm calm, if I'm encouraging, if they like a talkative person, you also have to read the room. Do they want me to talk to them? Do they not want me to talk? Do they want me to just be there and just be calm for them? A lot of times people tell me, I have a live event I do, and the men are not public speakers but they come to me and they have to speak in front of thousands, like a crazy amount of people. And they say, "You airbrush me this certain way and it calms me down. I feel like I'm in a spa. I calm down and I go out and I do great." That is my whole job then. I will do that forever. And that is my job to just be the happiness that gets you there.

Cathi Singh:
So the other touchpoint of, if there's other crew members that are high strung or having an emotional moment or there's troubleshooting. ADs, producers, you guys have other stuff going on in the background that we might not know about, that will affect us on set. So that negotiation, that interaction between the other crew members that make up in hair have with, let's say an AD. If we're running behind, the language, the energy, the way you approach me and say, I've had people be like, "We're just curious, how long do you think that last bit of hair is going to take you?" That is like, I will take that all day and I will answer you with an honest answer. I never pat it. I try and be as exact, I'll be like six minutes, if that, I'll do it under that. I'll try it as fast as I can.

Cathi Singh:
I also know you're asking me means, you're on time, right? That's your team to me that I need to speed up. But if you come to me and say, "We needed her five minutes ago, I don't know how I'm taking so long." Now my talent is stressed out. They're on edge. They've got all this, oh my God, we're late, and all the work that I have done to calm them and get them ready for you is out the window and I got to start over. So I feel like the negotiation and the interaction between crew, we have to be very respectful of each other's position.

Daniel Jester:
And this is something that I've seen you bring up in pre-production and I want to go on record and I might sound like a little bit of a broken record on this podcast. We talk all the time about including post-production teams in your pre-production meetings. Cathi, you were always on pre-production meetings with our clients when we were working together, because there was a, for one thing, there's a ton of information that you need coming in. You and I both know from experience that surprisingly hair and makeup can sometimes be overlooked by the client and they might not realize that there's some time that it takes to do this and they actually have to make decisions about how they want their talent to be styled and what they want their makeup to look like. And just a PSA to piggyback on what you said a moment ago, don't rush makeup because makeup, like everything else, if it's done really well, it won't be noticeable to the customer or the end user or whatever the result that you're going for is, but if it's done poorly, it will torpedo your work.

Cathi Singh:
And going to cost you a ton of money in post. It's going to cost you so much money in post.

Daniel Jester:
That's exactly right. And so there's another thing that you mentioned that I wanted to ask you about though, or I guess wanted to discuss a little bit deeper with you, that I think is really interesting because this is a term that I've heard relatively recently on the internet and various discussion forums and things about the idea of toxic positivity, people who are so positive that you can't even vent to them because they're too positive. And you mentioned a minute ago that sometimes the talent, you got to read the room, and I think that is a really powerful thing that you do because I know at your core, Cathi, that you are a very positive, very joyful person, but you're also self-aware enough to know that that's not for everyone and that I need to respond accordingly. And I think that that's as important as being positive is understanding and having that self-awareness to know, how do I treat this individual to make them feel the most comfortable?

Cathi Singh:
Absolutely. That's such a good point. And it's not changing your personality or changing who you are. I want to be very clear on that. It's just you exactly reading the room, adjusting your level. I have certain clients that were an all female crew and when we get there it's like, there's all this awesome energy and then it's like, get to work. Ladies, get to work. And we get to work and we all have the same idea. But I'm allowed, that energy is kind of our energy. That's cool. There are corporate clients where if I roll in like that and be all bopping, they're going to be not going to take me seriously or want to be in their chair. A CEO might not want me to be grooving around and playing music in the room. they might want to be thinking about what they have to say and I need to be invisible. There are moments for that. When it also brings into, with positivity and being that person, you also have to check your ego. There is no ego in makeup. There should be no ego in production. I'm so sorry. I just...

Daniel Jester:
No. Yeah. No disagreement for me on that. Hopefully I haven't been, you and I have actually worked together, so hopefully I've not been one of the egos on set, but I recognize that there's a possibility for that and it's not a good thing to have.

Cathi Singh:
Ego is the biggest positivity killer, honestly, on set. It is. Because it tells that crew, which essentially to me, a crew is like a body. Everybody has a part, an arm, a head, da, da, da. You know what I mean? Everyone's part of the crew. If you are going to be the ego, I think that you just take away, you tear away that part. We're not a group anymore. You've taken any positivity away. We don't want you to think that you are now more important than the arm. Why is this arm more important than this arm? You aren't. We can't do it without you, but you can't do it without me. So we need to do this together, we're a body part, we only function when we're whole. I think the ego is a really, really, really big deal. I think it also contributes to people not seeing the workload and complaining about certain things. And this job is not for everyone. And this job is all hands on deck. And this job is 110%.

Cathi Singh:
And if you're not willing to give it, it also is you have to give all of your attitude to the job. We call my job Mars in my family, in this house, we call it Mars because it is a certain mindset that I go into. I am a very happy person across the board. I am a different happy person on set because I'm also in charge, whereas here I'm part of a unit. I have a husband and a kid, we're a unit. At work, it's me. I call the shots, I'm in charge, but I'm also being happy. So we call it Mars because you do have to let go of your day, you can't let the outside influence you, and you really do have to give all of your mental focus and your energy to that project in that day. So I really, nothing else can affect me in that day. And that takes a certain mindset, a certain awareness, and definitely a certain family that can, or support group, that can handle that too.

Daniel Jester:
You and I have had some long days for sure. Working, specifically what we would work on together was E-commerce photography and videography for a handful of clients. And we were a service provider and so we had to shoot as much as we could in the day and the workloads were often pretty heavy, but I don't think we ever had one particular production that was bad, per se. And so I've never witnessed this from you, Cathi, but I'm curious, this might be a little bit of a loaded question, but what tools do you have to deal with those big egos when things get bad on set?

Cathi Singh:
So with me, this is partly something where I'm trying to really spread happiness and makeup because I do see, we are, like you said, we are a low line item on the bill, on the invoice, and we do get, not mistreated, I would say misused a lot and underused a lot and that causes a lot of frustration. So when that happens, let's say timing is off, or I was given 30 minutes when I was supposed to be given an hour, and I can't deliver. That's frustrating for me. If my work is not what I want to put my name on, I get frustrated. And also, if things are taken away from me that I have negotiated on set, that gets me going. So I will say I do get a little frustrated on certain things and you can ask my assistant, I do something called a timeout, and I will walk away from the situation, walk out of the building because there's all kinds of energy in the building, you guys.

Cathi Singh:
Think about the room you're in, it's buzzing, and there's no corner you can go where someone's not going to be. So that's another thing. So if you're going to squash it, don't share it with the entire crew please, don't share it with every department head, because it doesn't need to be done. It needs to be handled with the person it needs to be handled with. Take yourself outside for five minutes, calm down, then come back in. And I've done that repeatedly. I've had some interesting situations thrown at me and in order for me to handle it in a professional manner and to actually get a positive outcome, we want to... It's a blip in the day. We want to keep going on the day, we don't want it to end the day. I found that those timeouts are pretty helpful.

Cathi Singh:
And then just also acknowledging and respecting everyone's department. Respect everyone's department, respect the time, respect that wardrobe's going to need time after they come to makeup in here and we need to respect that too. And I think mutual respect builds emotional momentum, if that's even a thing. I think it builds a, heck yeah, you support me, I support you, we're going to kick butt on this day, and then you actually build more. I think you can do more in a day if you guys all build on each other's good attitude. You know what I mean?

Daniel Jester:
Yeah. We're having this conversation because there is so much value in it for the teams that are working on set for all of the reasons that you described and that we've been talking about. Something's coming back to me though. My memory, Cathi, is not always great, and I definitely have a tendency to romanticize the past a little bit. And I am remembering now that we did work on a production together where there was a lot of indecisiveness in hairstyle from the client and it was pretty frustrating and I remember you being pretty frustrated.

Daniel Jester:
And one of the very admirable things about you, Cathi, is you don't take your frustration out on individuals, but you do express yourself quite clearly. And I think that that's a really admirable trait that you have, is the ability to express that frustration without me feeling, or anyone else feeling, attacked by it. This is an incredibly frustrating thing for a creative, right? Is the indecisiveness or the back and forth or the, I did the exact thing you asked for and now you don't like it and you seem like you're mad at me. Again, another loaded question, but do you have techniques that you have or mindsets that you have to help ease the pain of those situations a little bit?

Cathi Singh:
I am guilty of falling for every single one of these that I have now corrected because I am in my 15th year of makeup and I will say that you do have to develop quite an outer layer in this industry and let things ping off of you. People are just going to say what they're going to say because they're looking at a canvas. They're looking at a piece of art. They're looking at what you painted. And they're just going to give their thoughts. They're not being like, "Cathi, that eyeliner, Cathi, that eyeliner, blah, blah, blah." They're going to be like, "What do we think about the eyeliner?" Don't take it personally. I had to learn that many, many years ago. Don't take it personally. It is makeup. It washes off. It comes off. It is fixable. Makeup is also tied to emotion so it's tied to improving that person's features. It's tied to them feeling better about themselves coming from within. It's about me enhancing what they love about themselves.

Cathi Singh:
So it's also important that that person feels confident that if we find something, that's the other thing, the indecisiveness on the client's end can affect the talent because the talent can start to become insecure. If you ask me to do a French braid, I had to do a French braid. So I do the French braid. I do this awesome French braid. She feels great. Client comes over, "Mm. Ooh." If they do all that, the client's going to be like, "What's wrong? My hair? What's wrong with my hair?"

Daniel Jester:
"Do I look bad with the French braid?"

Cathi Singh:
"I must look bad with the French braid. What did this makeup artist do to me?" And then the trust. But if they're like, "I don't know. What other options do we have for a French braid?" Or, "Is there a way that we can loosen this up a little bit? I think that would look really cool." Just finding a way to discuss it and not always discussing it in front of your talent or in front of everyone is always good too. But yeah, on that job, back to that job, with the indecisiveness, I did take myself on a timeout.

Daniel Jester:
I think that's what reminded me of it. Yeah. I honestly think, because I have a very bad memory and I do tend to find I have weird nostalgia for periods of my life that were really difficult and I don't know what that is about a very therapist style episode.

Cathi Singh:
Oh, good. I'm working through it.

Daniel Jester:
Yeah, I know. Yeah. Very, yeah. It really becomes about protecting that energy because there's, like you said, I loved the analogy of everybody as part of the body and we all work together. There's a lot of other ways that you can describe that, but it's a fine tuned machine that small things can have big impacts and really create a lot of frustration for your team. And to touch on your point of the confidence of the hair and the makeup, I feel like a lot of us have been living this recently with COVID and people not being able to go get their haircut.

Daniel Jester:
I know I feel like this all the time, is that my hair grows out and there was a period of time with getting a haircut, going out and getting your hair cut, could feel really risky. But it was always, I would reflect often after going months and months without getting a haircut or cutting my own hair, which I did do for a while, and it was not great guys, that your hair and the way that you present yourself is a huge part of your identity and you should not understate or undersell what it can do for your mental state when you feel like you look good.

Cathi Singh:
That's so true. And it's not you being too into yourself or too selfish or self-absorbed, it is about confidence. I mean, you, technically that model, that person on camera is at work. Just like that CEO is sitting in his chair, reading a meeting. She is at work. That is her. She's trying to look her absolute best and do her absolute best at work. As am I. And it is my job to make her feel incredible so that client can see that. And when there's, just back to that energy on set, protecting that positivity, it becomes a safe area, I feel like, where the talent feels safe and they feel confident and the client can feel that confidence, but you've created this safe little bubble, like we talked about, like a little bubble. That bubble, everyone now, even if it's like a, I'm shooting headphones. Whatever. Let's shoot headphones on that shoot.

Cathi Singh:
I would be invested in shooting the heck out of those headphones after that. All day I'd be like, "Let's kill this shoot. Let's get this." Because this crew, I want to work my butt off for that client because this crew's awesome. I want to work really hard. I'm invested. I feel safe. I feel like I can contribute. I feel like you want to hear my ideas. I feel like you're not telling me to do one thing and then asking me to change it. And you're trusting me, and we've created this magical little thing which is all that production is. I think production is so cool because you create this magical bubble that you don't get in other jobs. It's very, very, very, very special and to protect that, it will grow and everyone on set becomes invested and then it just blows up, and so it's great.

Daniel Jester:
Yeah. That's one of the things I really love and miss about the studio environment and working on set is that when you have a great set and everybody does feel safe. And that's one of the things that I really love about working in this industry is that working on set in a studio in a creative environment has always been a place where you can really be who you are and that was okay and it was about the work. And I have a ton of friends who have interests that I don't have and perspectives that I don't have because this is a place where you usually, hopefully, are building a really diverse team, and it's okay for everybody to be there, to have those perspectives and feel safe and secure in them. Yeah. It's been a very long time. I've been doing a lot of work here in my home studio by myself.

Cathi Singh:
Oh.

Daniel Jester:
And the podcast goes a long way but there's nothing like working on a set where everybody's happy and the work is going well. And even when it's a really busy day, like you said, Cathi, you and I have had some really great days on set that were really busy, but the energy was good and the positivity was there and at the end of the day, we all felt good about it. And if you wanted to spin that into something pessimistic, then you could say that there's a lot of bottom line, positive impact to the bottom line on having a really happy and positive crew is that you're going to get a lot of work done and people aren't going to feel burnt out necessarily from it.

Cathi Singh:
Exactly. And I think in a still COVID world where work was very stressful, and you and I were part of that stressful interaction of finding what's safe, and it was very difficult to carve out that positivity in those first few shoots. It was very difficult to find, being like spraying everybody in the face in the hands and being like, smiling under my mask. It's hard to find that positivity but I think now it's even more precious, if I may, that positivity and that warmth and that togetherness is very, very precious. And I have been on some sets that have abused that and I've left. I will no longer work on those projects because that positivity to me, to my career, to what I can bring to you, is precious. And I will protect that now. I will protect that now.

Daniel Jester:
That's a whole other dynamic to this conversation that I hadn't considered coming in, Cathi, which is that, do you make it a habit to turn down jobs that you know you can't protect that mental state that you've cultivated?

Cathi Singh:
Yep. I sure do. That's on my list actually. I often am looked at as a very nice person who will say yes, just because I'm nice and I'm bubbly and I'm positive.

Daniel Jester:
I said that's the exact reason we invited you to record this podcast, because I knew that you'd agree.

Cathi Singh:
I would say yes.

Daniel Jester:
Sorry if that means I'm taking advantage of you, Cathi. I sincerely apologize.

Cathi Singh:
No, not at all. But I did have to clarify a couple things when I was realizing it was about myself. I had to, like my husband says, go 30,000 feet up and look down at the situation and I was like, I realize this, but there are some people, and there's a couple companies that I did work with last year that I will be very, very cautious if they do call again, they took my kindness as a weakness, and it's quite the opposite. My kindness is very protected, and if you mess with it, then you'll get a timeout, but you won't get me again because that means you're not appreciating what I bring to the table, and I bring something a little bit different to the table.

Cathi Singh:
And so that is a boundary that I will now put in, but my kindness, and the kindness of other artists and other creatives, is not a weakness. It's an asset. And it's an amazing asset that you guys should lift up and really, really foster. And it kind of just made it much more mechanical than it needed to be. And I think that those shoots, they didn't work, honestly, there was tons of overtime, they didn't get the product they wanted, and I think that the environment wasn't right.

Daniel Jester:
Well, Cathi, we're coming up on just about the last few minutes of the episode here. I want to give you an opportunity, first of all, if there's anything else that you wanted to touch on that we didn't touch on. And also, I know you have a lot of things in the works that you'd love to share with our audience so I'd love to give you an opportunity to talk about those as well. So take it away.

Cathi Singh:
Thanks, Daniel. Well, yeah. I'm very, very grateful for where I am and the career I've had, but I have had the opportunity to share on Instagram with a thing called Cathi hacks, and it's just out of the normal ideas and multi-use items for makeup artists and hairstylists and people who travel, people in production, if you like downsizing or compact items, they're just helpful ideas. And so I've been sharing those for a couple years and those are doing more and so if you guys want to follow more of those, that's been a really, really joyful thing for me and it's brought a community that I didn't expect.

Cathi Singh:
So in COVID, I shared more of these things just to make artists feel more comfortable, your talent feel more comfortable, and it built this makeup community I was not expecting. And I'm really grateful for it because I have all these new friends and new people I can learn from and I feel like it built a bit more of positivity of we're all in this together, I'm not going to cut you down and take your job, we'll work together. And that's what we should be doing, I think, in other industries, filling in for each other instead of taking a job and discussing things. Building these little pockets of communities online or in person is really great so I'm very grateful for Cathi hacks, but if you like it you can pop in there and talk to me.

Daniel Jester:
Yeah. I have watched this community blossom over the years. I'm not on Instagram as much as I used to be. But from a producer's standpoint, one of the things that, I mean, I've definitely observed about you Cathi, is that you are always organized, your kit is well organized. It is substantial. It takes a while to unload. But you had everything you needed. You rarely needed anything that you didn't bring yourself, which is, as somebody who likes to go camping and loves having an organized kit, having all the things that you need, there's a joy in that, for sure.

Daniel Jester:
But Cathi hacks is really interesting because it's you continuously finding ways to improve your kit and make it work better for you. And that makes you better at your job and I think a lot of the makeup artists who follow the Cathi hacks Instagram, I won't call it a movement, maybe it's a movement. Maybe it is a movement. It is. I'm going to pronounce it a movement of positivity and organized makeup. I don't think I have the power to do that. I'll have to check with the producer of this podcast if I have the power to make proclamations like that. But anyway, just check out Cathi hacks. What is your Instagram handle, Cathi?

Cathi Singh:
Instagram is cathisingh. It's my name. It's C-A-T-H-I-S-I-N-G-H. It's a lot of fun dancing and makeup and happy things and-

Daniel Jester:
Yeah, we'll put the-

Cathi Singh:
Talk a lot about [inaudible 00:28:22].

Daniel Jester:
We'll put all of that in the show notes, of course. But Cathi, an absolute joy to hear your voice and see your face. Thank you so much for coming on the show and talking with me and I think our listeners are going to get a real kick out of this episode. I think it's a really good episode, so not to do too much inside baseball here.

Cathi Singh:
Well, thank you, Daniel. It was awesome to see your face. I've missed it so much. I miss you on set and I love that you're doing this podcast, this is awesome.

Daniel Jester:
That's it for this episode. If you're on Instagram, I really encourage you to follow Cathi. Her handle is @cathisingh, C-A-T-H-I-S-I-N-G-H, Cathi Singh. Many thanks to our guest, Cathi, and thanks to you for listening. The show is produced by Creative Force, edited by Calvin Lands, who I apologize to for the quality of this episode. I'm sorry, Calvin, but I know you'll do your best to make it sound good. Special thanks to Sean O’Meara. I'm your host, Daniel Jester. Until next time my friends.