Physical Studio Space Considerations with Kevin Mason

Key Takeaways

• Identifying the Space: Key stakeholders and members of the business unit should be involved as much as possible in choosing a space. The space matters a lot when it comes to physical workflows.
• You need clarity on what you're trying to achieve. Do you need more space to store product? Are you building a flagship studio to attract talent or brands?
• Like many things in business, understand your goals and identify ways to achieve them with your physical space.
• Evaluating your entire workflow to understand output and how it may be improved, will have an impact on how many sets you may need in the new space.
• Art direction also plays a role in space needs. How much light control do we need? How high should the ceilings be?
• Do what you can to extend the brand experience into your studio. This helps your talent feel engaged WITH the brand while creating content FOR the brand.

Links & Resources

• Kevin Mason on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-mason-30299381/
• Studio Workflow Limited: https://www.studio-workflow.com/
• Forbes Article on Workspace Impact to Employees: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alankohll/2019/01/24/how-your-office-space-impacts-employee-wellbeing/?sh=5c6aeed64f31

Full episode transcript

Daniel Jester:
From Creative Force, I'm Daniel Jester and this is the E-commerce Content Creation Podcast. Kevin Mason has been in photography for a long time, working for organizations like Amazon, Topshop Topman, and mostly recently consulting in creative production with his company Studio Workflow. Kevin also has a degree in interior architecture and having consulted on some big studio builds, I sat down to discuss with him his approach to building a new space.

Kevin Mason:
Have situations where actually the studio they've said, "Well, we're going to be on floor five and six. Which immediately is a of it like, oh, okay, that's tricky, it's doable, but it's tricky."

Daniel Jester:
There's a lot to consider when building out a new space and we touch on a lot of different aspects, including how much your current process will dictate what the space should look like. So rule number one, make sure your process is working the way you need it to. Let's get into it. This is the E-commerce Content Creation Podcast. I am your host, Daniel Jester, and joining me for this episode of the show, Kevin Mason, who comes to us from Berlin. And Kevin, you are a Studio Workflow consultant and all around studio consultant guide. Do I have that correct?

Kevin Mason:
That's right. Yeah workflow overall. I mean, I kind of look at everything from a sort of holistic point of view and depending on what my clients come to me, but yeah, overall I would kind of class it in workflow. Yeah.

Daniel Jester:
And today for this episode, we're specifically going to talk a little bit more about physical studio layout. We've talked a lot about a lot of topics, a lot of really great topics and have only really scratched the surface in a few episodes on the impact that your physical studio layout can play in your overall production. And it does have an impact sometimes you can have great digital workflow methods and automations and things that really support that side. And sometimes our physical studio space may not always support those workflows in the best possible way. Is that something that you'd agree with Kevin?

Kevin Mason:
Yeah. Yeah, totally. I think that there's a couple of ways of looking at that. And a lot of the time that people come up with a digital workflow, but don't think about the physical properties of the space itself. How does that pertain to moving product around and are the teams that you're connecting digitally, are they near each other and those aspects. But then also, looking at what can you actually achieve in a physical space that you've set up.

Daniel Jester:
Let's just talk about your approach when you have, let's call it a blank slate. What are you thinking about? Maybe we go as far back is identifying a space. I don't know if you want to touch on that, but definitely, we've identified a space and we just want to do it right from the beginning. Where's our head at from day one?

Kevin Mason:
I think it's an interesting point, first of all, to find out who identified the space? So a lot of the time people will come to me and they're like, "Oh, we've done the building search." And when you find out who did the building search, it's maybe someone that's not connected to the business unit at all.

Daniel Jester:
It's chief money bags.

Kevin Mason:
[crosstalk 00:03:11] the studio... Yeah. And they've found a place and-

Daniel Jester:
Who doesn't know anything about...

Kevin Mason:
Right. It's somewhere that maybe it's away from all the central train stations. It's kind of not great to get to, but it's cheap per square meter. And it's maybe got a good ceiling height, but it's too full of daylight or it's got no daylight. And there's a lot of aspects like that, that I immediately would almost push back if someone's done the building search, it's a flag to me of going well, why did you not get someone in earlier to look at the building search with you? Having said that the flip side to it is obviously depending on the client, they've got big teams of people that put a lot of effort into building search and have already done it before and know what the requirements of a studio are. But that's one of the key areas to me of that blank slate approach is like, well, let's go look at the space. What is the space that we're dealing with?

Kevin Mason:
There's the sheer logistics, like you said of how central is it, do the models get there easily, do the creatives get there easily, is it nice surrounding, where can you go for lunch? There's things like that, but there's also how do you get the trucks in? Where do you bring the product in? Are you on a ground floor? Because I've had situations where actually the studio they've said, "Well, we're going to be on floor of five and six." Which immediately is a bit like, oh, okay, that's tricky. It's doable.

Daniel Jester:
Where's the freight elevator?

Kevin Mason:
But it's tricky. Right. So that's one of the big things for me is what is the criteria that you established for finding the space? And then the other thing with that is like, are you basing this on what you've already got? Have you got a studio? Are you expanding? What is the reason for getting this new space and trying to connect those two things together first, look at the existing and look at where you're trying to get it to, if that makes sense.

Daniel Jester:
It does. Because that definitely, I think would complicate somebody in your role. You need to have that understanding, are we talking about, is this an annexation? Is this additional studio square footage on top of some other space that's somewhere else? How are those places going to work together? Are you going to be able to operate the new space as a self-contained studio or does there need to be some things that are shared between those two spaces? And that's not uncommon, not in my experience where you've got a small studio that instead of wholesale moving the entire studio to a larger place to accommodate more, they might take on adjacent suites in the building that they are already in. And then turn that into, like I said, an annexed sort of studio.

Kevin Mason:
One of the things with that also is trying to pin down what are you trying to achieve or what's the key driver that made you look at this new space? Do you have a capacity issue for example, and that's a very relevant thing for a lot of people. Or is it that you're trying to bring new brands on board, for example, and you want a flagship studio space that you can really show off and they're very different things and they're very different models that you would end up with and subsequently very different designs that you would put into that. And yeah, to your point, it's like, if you're sort of piggybacking and you're saying, okay, this is a studio that works alongside, then what are the processes that you're going to implement that are existing, or are you going to start from scratch?

Kevin Mason:
And are you going to say, okay, new processes because it's a new building. And there are things that should be conversations that happen really early on. In my experience, a lot of time people will come to me and they say, "Okay, we've got the building and this is what we need to kind of squeeze into it." So then it's a little tricky to then go, "Well again, what did you commit to? What have you told the brand or the business unit, this is what this studio is going to deliver capacity wise and number of sets and so forth."

Daniel Jester:
Let's put some parameters around the conversation and I'll go ahead and say, we don't have a space identified. We'll do it over in your neck of the woods. We'll say we're opening up a studio in Berlin and it doesn't necessarily need to be that flagship. I'm very familiar with the concept of the flagship studio that you show off to clients. It doesn't quite need to be that, but we do want to be competitive in attracting talent, both in terms of models and creative talent. We want to find the right balance between value, but being able to have a space that people can get to easily and want to come to. So what are we looking for right off the bat? And we'll say, we're going to move wholesale into a new space. We're not creating an annexed sort of studio. We're going to move everybody into one space and we want to be able to do on model stills, some tabletop and video as well.

Kevin Mason:
Okay. I mean, I think the first thing with that is are we trying to create, let's say standard E-commerce or are we trying to create elevated content as well? And with that, if it is elevated, how elevated is that content going to be? Are we shooting campaigns there or are we just shooting the classic kind of E-commerce that we know. That's the first thing that I would, I guess, begin to address with someone because then we can begin to work out well we know what a basic size of a set needs to be for an on model set. I always try and work on the idea that everything is quite modular. I know roughly a footprint that should work for almost anyone really and the same applies to tabletop.

Kevin Mason:
And then you can begin to kind of narrow down, well, how many square meters do you need for that? But the other big thing I guess is then how much product are you storing in the studio and how long are you storing the product in the studio for, and what is your time to online? And what is your time to review thing? Do you need three weeks worth of product in the studio or are you super good and you only need four days worth of it?

Daniel Jester:
What you're talking about there is storing product pre-production and post-production, you got to think about it from beginning to end, right? Not only where's it going to live and stay when it hasn't been shot yet when it's been received, but how much do we need to hold onto at the other end of the studio when everything's shot and done.

Kevin Mason:
With that in mind you're doing a couple of things. You're building a warehouse essentially at the same time. And one of the big questions for me, and this does then come down to workflow is speaking, let's say whoever my client is, then saying, "Well, actually, how good is your review process? Do you shoot a lot of stuff from sample? Do you shoot a lot of stuff from..." Okay, it's got to be online in like you said 48 hours and so on. If your review process is awesome and you can send a product out straight away and you can just digitally review everything, then you save a lot of expensive footprint because you're not creating a warehouse. One of the things also with that is that let's say if we're shooting a model, you need a decent ceiling height.

Kevin Mason:
And a lot of the time, if it's not just an empty warehouse, the more you're paying for the ceiling height means that the more you're paying per square meter for something. And obviously you don't want to turn really expensive square meters into a warehouse. That doesn't make sense. So it's really for me then about saying, well, okay, is your workflow process good? Does it warrant the fact that we can carry minimal amount of product into the space? And then we can go in and really analyze how many sets are we putting in there. If you have control over your product flow, that's already a huge weight off my mind. That definitely helps frame everything in terms of how we move things around the studio and how much space we kind of put into it. It also then hopefully allows you to kind of really control or get a clear idea of what your capacity is per set, because that's another key driver for me. Someone will come to me and maybe say, "Okay, we need 30 on model sets."

Kevin Mason:
And then it needs to be kind of quickly understood, well, what are you basing that on? How many items is someone shooting per day? Are you shooting 75? Are you shooting 28? And what does that output look like? That's another big factor immediately for me. If we're kind of defining this space is to try and then understand, okay, well, who do the brand want to be? Or if they've got existing content and they're happy with it, let's take a look at their content and go, "Well, how do we need to light this space? Do we need massive ceiling height? Or can we get away with a front light and a couple of back lights and keep the sets kind of quite small." Those are the questions that I would then begin to ask. And it's really about, okay, is the creative director on board with this or the operations team on board with this? Are they all tied into the fact that we are definitely shooting 28 or we're shooting 75 and I'll keep those two numbers because I've had both of those.

Daniel Jester:
It's interesting to see how quickly this does turn into a conversation about more general workflow when you're trying to talk about maybe building out a new space, because I don't mean to pigeonhole you Kevin, to say that all you do is physical studio layout stuff. Obviously you're an expert in all different ways of thinking about workflow and process improvement and all of that kind of thing for a studio. But somebody coming to you and saying, "We want to build out a new space." And it turns out that they haven't done the homework on the rest of their workflow. They're going to build a new space around... And we've talked a little bit about it. I believe with Curren Calhoun, from Gap that somebody wants to implement something new, but they've got a process with tons of problems that they're trying to implement that new thing around.

Daniel Jester:
And so you're right. Somebody comes to you and says, "We need 30 sets." And then I think it's smart to ask the question why, because then it turns out, well, we only shoot 10 products per set per day. Maybe we need to figure out a way to increase that. Maybe there are some ways that we can increase that, that doesn't feel like a lot of additional work for everybody on those sets. And then we can reduce that number in half potentially.

Kevin Mason:
And to be honest, not to do myself out of work, but the first thing I would say with someone, if they come to me if they want a new studio, if they've got an existing one I'd say, let's go in and have a look at your process right now, because maybe you don't need a new studio. I love designing studios and it's really fun. But at the same time maybe you've just got loads of breaks and in a process that you have right now. Maybe your team engagement isn't great, or maybe your systems aren't great. And maybe you've got fluctuating targets every day and people are not sure what they need to achieve. And I would always try and do the basics first. And a lot of people come to me and they've done that and that's fine and they've evaluated, okay, we need this new space, but again, if you came to me as a brand new client, I would really challenge you first, why do you need the space? And what do you think it's going to solve for you?

Daniel Jester:
I think that's an important distinction to make. And I think that I appreciate that. You're invested in the success of your client and that isn't always, in this case, it isn't always giving them exactly what they're asking for, because that may not be what they need.

Kevin Mason:
Yeah, because sometimes someone has committed to an idea a year ago. Because this is the other thing also if we get to the point that we're building a new studio, it's probably a decision that was taken at least 18 months ago, at least at the start, the decision may be only made last month, but there's probably a year and a half of discussion first to get to that point.

Daniel Jester:
Right, we're talking about significant budgets to build out a new space. So we're talking about something that was not just money bags woke up one day and said, "Let's spend some of this money."

Kevin Mason:
Absolutely. And the thing is it's about spending money, but also it's the disruption that comes from it because let's say you build a studio and you get to kind of almost the launch point, you've got one studio operating and you've got to get another team into another studio to start to test it, to bring product into the space. Even if it's your own product, you've still got downtime. And yes, that you said, okay, in this example, we can control the cycles, but we've still got that issue of then we've got a startup studio and an existing studio and that already makes it complicated. So I would always kind of warn my client first of all, don't do this. And then secondly, okay, if you are going to do it let's really think about what the problems are here. And also the seasonality of when we're going to do this, when we're going to launch and so on.

Daniel Jester:
So just to recap so far, one of the first things that you would want to talk about with a potential client is, tell me a little bit about your workflow. If you came with a specification for the studio, let's make sure that your assumptions are correct and that we've identified that this is actually what we need. And then that conversation can also uncover for you specific needs about the physical space. So what is your post production, what does your review process look like? How long do we need to hold product? Worst case scenario, how much product are we talking about? I've told this story on the show, at least once visiting a studio for an interview where the studio manager was newly hired and was handed this brand new studio by senior leadership at the company. And it was already too small. They had already outgrown it.

Daniel Jester:
It was a furniture company that shot furniture. And they had this really smart rack system in their storage area where they could store sofas up high. And it was very secure, but they had already filled it up. And so he took me out the back door of the studio and the entire rear parking lot of the studio was filled with shipping containers that were filled with un-assembled furniture, waiting to be processed in because they had already... Somebody had made the decision and pulled the trigger on the studio space without the benefit of having a studio manager hired and on the team who could maybe help guide some of this.

Kevin Mason:
I've been in that exact scenario actually, when I went to take over a studio, they were like, "Oh, well we've signed up pretty much for a lease, it's there apart from the final signature." And again, when I went to see it, it's actually, this space is never going to fulfill our needs. So we need to quickly get out of this contract and move it somewhere else. And a lot of the time, like I said, then it's people outside of the business unit, maybe making a really snap decision on those things. I think one of the things also to come back to the original, like I said, I really want to take a holistic approach with these things. So yes who do you want to be and what do you want to achieve and what capacity, but I'm kind of an org chart person also.

Kevin Mason:
I want to look at the org chart and go, okay, well, do you have a good studio manager and what do they do, what is their role? Do you have equipment managers? Do you have specialist people for each role or do you have operators? I think there's probably a point now we can split it into two different studios. There's the production line studio. And then there's the let's say empowered creatives studio and that they have different targets and different expectations. And creating a production line studio is a completely different model. And even in terms of layout necessarily to the creative empowered studio. So that's the next thing that I always try and do is have a look at the org chart, how big are the teams? What skillset have you got, let's say fashion photographers, or do you have stylists that know how to use a camera for example, which is no disrespect to either of those roles, but they're very different functioning models [crosstalk 00:17:40].

Daniel Jester:
Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, another important thing that I think that you would want to know is, are you employing any automated devices and what's the throughput of your automated device? Because I know my experience in building out a studio space, it was a little bit of a learning curve for me coming from a traditional product photography background of, oh, okay. This automated device, which is run by an operator, like you said, this person doesn't have a background as a photographer. They have a background more in like operations and that's also 60% of our volume of the whole studio runs through that device. And we had just shoved it in a corner because it was a big piece of machinery. And then we said maybe that thing needs to be central to our workflow because so much of our product moves through there.

Kevin Mason:
Yeah, absolutely. And definitely not against the automated devices, but with my approach, I guess is trying, kind of impower people to be able to make decisions and also be skilled in the area that they're working in. That's one of the key things for me in trying to get specialists to do a specialist role and then offhand everything that isn't a specialist role. I've definitely had clients where yeah, they've got automated devices, but the flow into that device and out of it is not as quick as the machine is for example. And then suddenly you've got a bottleneck going into the machine and people are like, "Well, is the machine the problem or is it the flow that's the problem?" And you have to quite quickly identify some of those areas as well.

Daniel Jester:
What would be the next step for you, Kevin? Let's say we've got a workflow that we like, we've identified the space that we like and it meets all of our parameters and you've taken a look at the org chart and we understand what we're looking at here. Once we get into the space, do you personally go into it with a floor plan drawn up ready to go, that you've sort of worked through mentally or is there a little bit of physical experimentation that happens once you get into a space?

Kevin Mason:
So I think I have an established floor plan in my mind of how I would like a studio to necessarily work and there's that to a certain extent of let's just move it all the way through the building if we can, for example, and not have product tracking backwards and forwards, but then a lot of the time that floor plan just quickly disappears and you have to then-

Daniel Jester:
There's a pillar right in the middle of someplace or-

Kevin Mason:
Oh, pillars, yeah, for sure.

Daniel Jester:
Yeah, the pillars are bad or the studio space is S shaped for some reason.

Kevin Mason:
Right, yeah. I mean, that's the thing I've had that. And I've had, like I said earlier, studios on two different floors, for example, and actually products sometimes need to move between the two floors and you start to realize, oh, there's so many different use cases going in here that what looks important at the beginning. But my workflow with that is very much I walk around on with an iPad and I'll sketch something out as much as I can when I'm with the key people that need to be on site and we'll start to just get a feel of the space to some extent and say, "Well okay, if the product's here, how much space does it need to fit? And can that filter into the model sets quite quickly or do we shoot with a mannequin first?"

Kevin Mason:
And I start to build out ideally with an operations director, as well as a studio manager or a studio director, and start to map it out just by walking around and see how does it feel. But one of the things that we... I think when we touched on, when we first spoke originally just about this was then I want to try and create not a moment as such, but let's say you're bringing in models. Let's say you're trying to produce premium quality imagery. Then it's like, well, what is the model space like, what is the entrance? What do they see when they come in? Do they see a row of desks or warehousing of clothing or do they see place that feels like you're walking into Milk Studio or Spring Studio? And can you do something like that to really elevates the brand immediately and gets the models to think, okay, I'm doing something that is interesting or I have to give a little of myself to this and I try to understand a brand a bit and pitch those moments if I can, if possible.

Daniel Jester:
I really appreciate that. And I do want to pivot and talk about some other amenity type things. You mentioned up at the top how easy is the studio space to get to for your team? And I want to talk a little bit about some of these amenities, because I do think that they're important. Talk to me a little bit about in your mind, the importance of that, not only in the studio, but also like you said about availability of interesting places to get lunch and stuff like that. How important do you think that is for some of these teams?

Kevin Mason:
I think it's a thing of, let's say we are shooting this slightly elevated E-com and I hope people have something in mind when they think of what that would be. And like I said, then it's really about creating a model experience or a creatives experience that it is engaging, that that makes them understand a little bit about the brand story that they care about to some extent. And that really comes down to yeah, some of those factors that you discussed. If you are going from a train station in a mini cab to an industrial state and you walk past loads of different warehousing to get into somewhere, I think each one of those can kind of help knock back the brand story a bit. So as a model you're maybe kind of a bit more disengaged than you would be if you're just stepping off the train into a really nice kind of atrium or something.

Daniel Jester:
Sure. Yeah.

Kevin Mason:
Obviously some of that's not quite feasible, but I think those things are really big factors for me. But also yeah, we have to think about, okay, what is the routine that you get into. And let's say you know by 3:00 in the afternoon that you've shot your 75 items or your 25 items, if there's nowhere that you can go and take a nice break, then your afternoon dip, which happens in every studio-

Daniel Jester:
Totally.

Kevin Mason:
Can become really significant. If you can't get a good lunch, then again the posing maybe doesn't get so good or teams are not engaged. And I think for me, it's again about, I don't want to separate creatives and desk jobs in a way that they're against each other. But I think it's really about understanding that a lot of the time creatives have shot in editorial studios. They've come from a background where they get a bit more space and a bit more good feeling about the place they're walking into. And how do we build on that? How do we try and create that for people?

Daniel Jester:
I couldn't agree with you more. In my personal experience I know that the one-two punch here is to have a beautiful space that people enjoy being in and having a good team that people enjoy working with. Because if you're a good team, you can get away with some extent to convincing people to come to a space that isn't conducive to the way that they want to work necessarily. That's been my experience. I'm proud to say that my team at one of my studios, I think was a good team and we cared about and took care of our team members, but it was an awful physical space. And so that good team good will bought me some time, but eventually my team would burn out and they'd be like, "I need..." They were mostly freelancers. So they'd say like, "I need to take a week. I just can't do it anymore. I need to kind of recharge a little bit."

Daniel Jester:
And I totally understood that. The opposite of that is true. You can have a beautiful space and an incredibly dysfunctional workflow and team and all the capital that you've built up with that beautiful space is wasted because everybody's unhappy. So the two sides of that coin need to be in sync. And then it's just, sky's the limit at that point.

Kevin Mason:
And this is a challenge I find because sometimes the warehouse would be easier for me because normally the flow plan is completely open, there's nothing in there already. And I can fit things into a warehouse pretty easily. But then if you go, well, okay, we've got this beautiful building, but like you said, there's pillars everywhere or the floors are uneven and that's difficult, but maybe the payoff is that everyone enjoys being there a little bit more.

Kevin Mason:
Or we've all been in a situation where you've suddenly got to take five extra products to the set towards the end of the day and maybe in a beautiful building, the good will is there because the team are more engaged and those five products get shot. Maybe in a warehouse they don't, and that's not always the case. Like you said, you can have engaged teams anywhere, but it's about trying to understand and have conversations about those things at the beginning. And to be honest, also the brand might shut it down. Just go, actually, no, we need the warehouse. That's what we need. We need a distribution center and we need warehousing in there.

Daniel Jester:
Right. Yeah, and I think from a business standpoint, in a logistics and supply chain standpoint, that that makes a lot of sense. And I've worked in... God, how many has it been? Three or four studios that were embedded in warehouses and they're not all created equal. You can a really nice space, it depends on a lot of factors. As we get ready to wrap up this conversation. Kevin, I want to put you on the spot a little bit. One thing that you said that I just wanted to draw attention to, again, really quick that I thought was really interesting is the brand experience existing at the studio. And that was really interesting to me and it makes total set, but I don't feel like it's something that has been specifically said on the show, which is, it's pretty self explanatory. You want that brand experience to exist in the space where the creative is happening so that you can get your talent to feel engaged and feel like a part of the brand. I think that that's really insightful.

Kevin Mason:
I think, yeah. I mean, for me it is definitely, it's a key factor. And the other thing that I would say with that is one of the questions I often ask is, has the creative director ever been to your studio? And a lot of the time they'll be like, "No, they don't know where the studio is." Sorry, creative directors, but it comes up quite a lot of the time. And maybe they don't like this space or something. I say, "Well, how do we sell the brand ethos and the brand story if the creative director doesn't go and visit?" And how did we get to the point that we built a space that they don't want to be in? That shows in the imagery sometimes, not always depending what you're trying to produce, but it's there with the team engagement also.

Daniel Jester:
So the last thing I want to do Kevin, and put you on the spot a little bit is I'm going to ask you for two things. One is what is a common mistake that you see all the time when a brand's getting ready to build out a new studio space, brand or retailer. And then on the other side of that, what is something that you usually bring to the table that they haven't thought of?

Kevin Mason:
The mistake I guess a lot of the time is not understanding exactly what the set needs to do. So let's break it down, what does the model set need to do? How big does it need to be? How much does someone need to walk around that space? Who's in that set, what's the maximum and minimum that it needs to be? And I've had clients that come to me where they've got three different types of model set and they don't know quite how they ended up there and they maybe do something a little different, but the output looks the same. That's the big mistake first of all is going okay, well, how do we define the set? I think it's where do you want to be in two years of this studio?

Kevin Mason:
For me, I try and create everything so it's modular as best as possible so that even if it's just a simple flip that, okay, this set needs to do video in 18 months time I try and create my sets that they can switch from strobe to video to LED or whatever you need to and build that kind of future proofing into them to a certain extent. I think a lot of times brands have really focused on exactly what they need to do now. And maybe outside of the business unit, they're already thinking about different customer experience, but the business unit is so pushed to deliver each day that they're just like, how do we get 75 or 28 out of this and make the sets as simple as possible for that?

Daniel Jester:
So having that little bit of view into the future, or even just asking the question, what does this studio look like in two years or five years? I think that's an interesting thought to have.

Kevin Mason:
Based on the fact that I've visited a lot of studios now, fortunately, and you can kind of take a little piece of... Because I don't have all the ideas obviously. It's taking a little piece of, oh, they did this really well. And I like this set approach and pushing that into the idea of if there's a change of direction for the brand in 18 months time, we've got to set that is responsive or a layout that's responsive because we can take it all apart and reconstruct it if we need to.

Daniel Jester:
Kevin, thank you for your time and your insight for joining us on the podcast today.

Kevin Mason:
It's a pleasure. It's really enjoyable, thank you. I appreciate you asking me.

Daniel Jester:
Many thanks to our guest Kevin Mason, and thanks to you for listening. The show is produced by Creative Force, edited by Calvin Lands. Special thanks to Sean O'Meara. I'm your host Daniel Jester, until next time my friends.