Making the Case for Continuous Improvement with Terence Mahone of Farfetch

Key Takeaways

• The best implementations of continuous improvement starts the process with the ground level team, but senior leadership has to be on board to build the structures and create the environment.
• Fluency in the process is important. You can assuage fears by teaching your teams the language.
• Listen to learn. As a manager, listen to learn, invite your directs to speak freely and listen to learn.
• Work to ask questions in a way that doesn't feel like a deflection.
• The words we use and our tone of voice matters when it comes to getting buy in for ground up idea generation.
• Build a system to quantify the effect of process improvements, and provide meaningful feedback.

Links & Resources

• Terence Mahone on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/terencemahone/
• Will Lean Kill Creativity? No.: https://implementconsultinggroup.com/will-lean-kill-creativity-in-innovation/
• Overview of Six Sigma: https://www.simplilearn.com/what-is-six-sigma-a-complete-overview-article
• Continuous Improvement and Kaizen Principles: https://www.leanproduction.com/kaizen.html

Glossary

• 5 Whys: A root cause analysis technique to determine the root cause of a given problem and help identify a solution. Read more here.
• Gemba Walk: The action of going to see the actual process, understand the work, ask questions, and learn. Read more here.

Full episode transcript

Daniel Jester:
From Creative Force, I'm Daniel Jester. And this is the E-commerce Content Creation podcast. Joining me for this episode is Terence Mahone, senior manager of digital production operations at Farfetch. But before we get into the discussion, a couple of quick notes. Our topic today relates to continuous improvement. And you may hear terms that you aren't familiar with. So here's a quick primer.

Terence Mahone:
When they came back to me and they said, hey, I just want to ask the five whys everywhere.

Daniel Jester:
The five whys is a technique that is used to determine the root cause of a problem. You ask yourself why five or more times to determine what the true underlying cause is. A quick example. I ran a red light. Why? Because I was late for work. Why? Because my alarm didn't go off. Why? Because the alarm clock is broken. And so on until you identify a root cause that can be addressed.

Terence Mahone:
Okay. We've got two team members that are able to lead a Gemba Walk.

Daniel Jester:
A Gemba Walk in the practice of lean and six sigma means taking the time to watch how a process is done and talking with those who do the job. Studio leaders, walking the floor of a studio, observing the process and asking questions of the team engaged in the work can determine what tasks are actually being done and assess if they add value. We will, of course, include some resources in the show notes about some of these concepts that we're talking about. If you want to learn more about lean, six sigma, Gemba Walks, or the five why's or other root cause analysis, check out the show notes, and we'll have some links there for you to read up on. A last quick note. If you're enjoying the show, please subscribe on your podcast app of choice and leave us a five star rating.

Daniel Jester:
This will help get our show in front of more people who may enjoy it also, if you really enjoy the show, consider writing a review. And if you have comments or questions about the show ,at the end of the episode, I'll give some info on how you can contact us and join in the conversation. Without further ado, let's get into our discussion about continuous improvement in your production studio with Terence Mahone.

Daniel Jester:
This is the E-commerce Content Creation podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Jester. And today with me on the show, former coworker, current friend, future father figure if you'll have me, Terence Mahone. Terence, welcome to the show.

Terence Mahone:
I didn't realize that it was an adoption episode actually, but thank you. Glad to be here.

Daniel Jester:
Terence, I mentioned the former coworker. You and I worked at the same places at different times and at the same place at the same time. But for the benefit of our audience, why don't you give us the quick rundown on your work history and then we'll get into our topic for this episode?

Terence Mahone:
I've been around for a little while. And back when I started in photography, we did chemicals and film. And the way you started out was cutting your teeth and you assisted other photographers. And I did that for awhile and assisted automobile and architectural and product photographers. And fortuitously enough on January 3rd of 1990, I had my opportunity to get behind the camera in a studio. And somehow I've been applying my way ever since then. Most recently, I guess, sort of the last 20 years or so, I spent about 13 years as a co-owner of a studio in Grand Rapids, Michigan that serviced both food, business to business, and quite a bit of the furniture industry. Around the end of 2012, we'd had our best year ever. I was sort of bored. I was looking for new challenges. I sold my share of the business to my business partner, having no idea what I would do next.

Terence Mahone:
And over a few years, wound up at Amazon and I was there, first as a photography lead and then a photography manager and then a creative production manager, spent about five years there, finished up by launching a studio for them in the Los Angeles area, and then in December of 2019, I made the leap over and joined the team at Farfetch as the production operations manager for their studio in North America here in Los Angeles. And I've been there ever since. It's been a wild ride, obviously. 2019 December, I had no idea COVID was coming. So I had three months of what looked like normal, and then the rest of my time here has been working through something pretty different,

Daniel Jester:
We invited you on the show today, Terence, because of this background that you have with Amazon and Farfetch and your experiences in studios that do a good job of continuous improvement. So our topic that we have you on today to talk about is how do we foster a culture and build a studio that really responds positively to the idea of continuous improvement? There's a lot to unpack here. I don't know where we're going to start to kind of unpack the conversation, but here's one thing that I'll throw out there that we do know is that continually, and you can agree or disagree, continually evaluating our process to identify weak points, to identify things that can work better, maybe it's not a weak point, but maybe there's just a better way of doing it is how we can continue to relieve the burden of work on our team members and produce the kind of output that E-commerce requires us to produce.

Terence Mahone:
Well, like you said, there's a lot to unpack. And gee, I don't know, how do you get your arms around it? I love to dig into the words of what are we really talking about? Do we know what we're saying when we say the words? And we say culture of continuous improvement. And I think about that. And I think about just the idea, we sort of have this idea of when we imagine culture, we think about people and we think about sort of the sociological aspect of culture. But I sort of think about it in terms of culturing that, almost like it's this laboratory Petri dish kind of thing, where you want to create a medium where things that you're looking for will grow. It's interesting. How do you dig into it? How do you draw that out of the team? The creative team, they're the ones who know the best where their pain points are. And how do you make sure that you're giving them voice to speak that authoritatively and accurately?

Daniel Jester:
You need to have the framework in place. You and I, it's probably no secret to our audience that we have conversations about things before we jump into recording and we discussed the analogy of gardening or farming, however you want to put it. That you can throw seeds down on a patch of dirt and hope for the best, or you can build the best possible environment to allow those seeds to do their thing and to create the best possible growing environment to get the best fruit out of your garden. And so it really comes down to, is your studio right for this? It goes back to culture.

Daniel Jester:
So I guess there's a couple of ways to think about this. Is the studio physically right for adopting some of the policies that lead to some of these continuous improvement things? But also, are our teams mentally prepared for it? Is our senior leadership on board? And I think you made a really great point the last time we spoke that while we want the ideas to come from the bottom up, we want our teams at every level to be engaged and offering solutions, the support has to come from the top down. The senior leadership has to be on board. Give me your thoughts on that, Terence.

Terence Mahone:
I was fortunate. I was charged with this really broad statement. My leader said to me, go out and create a culture of continuous improvement. Full-stop.

Daniel Jester:
Done. Easy.

Terence Mahone:
Yup.

Daniel Jester:
Nailed it.

Terence Mahone:
Yeah, but honestly, I couldn't ask for a better mission. Sure. There's maybe some expectations that aren't expressed in there, but it's like, okay, well, I'm just going to take that and I'm going to run with it. And I'm going to say, hey, I've got the buy-in from senior leadership that I'm going to do this thing. And then, again, coming back to this weirdness of 2020 that, we shut our studio down due to COVID in March of 2020, and Farfetch made the decision that there were going to be no furloughs, we're going to keep everybody on staff, and we're going to redeploy. And I looked at this and I said, this is the opportunity. And first week of shutdown, we had just launched you to me as a learning tool. I assigned everybody six sigma white note. We're not going to miss a beat. We're going to dive right into this.

Daniel Jester:
What were the responses from your teams on that?

Terence Mahone:
For the most part, compliance. And then, I think when we think about, like you were saying, this top-down sort of thing. It's like, sometimes you have to listen. It's like, okay, the plate, you do the work on the soil. The plants are going to do the growing, but then you've got to watch the plants and see what they do. So I just sort of said to the team, hey, what do you guys think about this? Is there more you want to know? Does anybody want to explore further? A couple of hands went up. I love the fact as a photographer that the two hands that went up were photographers. And I said, here's yellow belt training. Let's dig into that.

Terence Mahone:
And then I said, hey, there's certification. There's testing. Do you guys want to do testing? Hands went up. They dug into that. And before I knew it, someone was coming back to me and saying, hey can I spend $130 on a research book for this before a test? And I'm like, absolutely. The easiest thing in the world to say yes to, because all I have to do is spend $130 and you're going to keep going. That's where I've done a little bit of top-down work. And look, here comes the team. They want to do this.

Daniel Jester:
Here are the team members that are really adopting this idea and the rest of your team that maybe didn't express that level of interest. It's not lost. They're primed now to understand the machinations of your teams that are really invested in it. They have the primer. It may not be for them to pursue it further, but they have a fundamental understanding of what some of the efforts are going to look like.

Terence Mahone:
Well, exactly. And they know the vocabulary, right? So, okay. We've got two team members that are able to lead a Gemba Walk. And what that means is they can lead the Gemba Walk. We can pull other people in because we want those different eyes and those fresh eyes. And the other participants in the Gemba Walk are prepared at this point. So great to have two, I would have loved to have had four or whatever, but yeah, the rest of the team is built up and ready for it. One of them has passed, the other is still working on it. But when they came back to me and they said, hey, I just want to ask the five whys everywhere.

Daniel Jester:
Yeah.

Terence Mahone:
They didn't even care about the framework or the fact that, oh, we have to do this in some sort of a codified way. Their inquisitiveness was inspired by it. And I love that idea of the fact that they just wanted to apply that every time. And just because you know about it doesn't mean you're skilled at doing it. You have to practice.

Daniel Jester:
The amazing thing about this is that these ideas are coming from the people who are doing the work. I mean, this is the core message that we want to kind of convey behind talking about the idea of continuous improvement and some of the formal training that goes along with it is that it's one thing for even a mid manager or senior level studio leader to come down and say, here's how we're going to do this thing having never done it for an hour in their own studio, or having your people who are doing it at the ground level on set every day saying, why are we doing this? Is there a better way to do it? And then bringing those ideas up. And the benefit that I've seen in my time at Amazon, and my admittedly quite short time at Farfetch, is that the ideas are great. A lot of the time you have to evaluate them. You're absolutely right. Not everybody's very good at it, but the buy-in to the ideas are already there. There's no more of the hard sell of how we're going to do it this way.

Terence Mahone:
At Amazon, I had this idea that as a leader of creatives, part of my job, maybe a big part of my job, was to serve as a translator. That the language I recognized, that the language of management may not be the same language that creative speak, may not even be part of the same language family that they speak. So how do you get in between that? And I think that continuous improvement training and learning is a way for creatives to take something that they innately have, the ability to question, the ability to create and synthesize, and to formalize that into a type of language that management can understand. And it also gives them a little bit of insight into the language of management when the language of management speaks to them. Maybe it's a little less mysterious. Maybe they start to realize, oh, this is why we talk about KPIs all the time.

Terence Mahone:
And maybe I didn't even remember regularly what a KPI was, except that it was a number I had to hit.

Daniel Jester:
Right.

Terence Mahone:
But again, I think it's a great translation tool. We want to hear from the creative team. We want to see, like you say, what does the person who's doing the job, the person experiencing the pain points in the job, how do they want to improve it? And if we give them the language and the tools to describe it and to describe the impacts accurately, and to start to wrap metrics around it, then management hears that that much better.

Daniel Jester:
You and I have both spent time in a number of different studios. Some of them employ the idea of continuous improvement, other management styles, other organizational styles, to varying degrees of success. But if you could sum up for the studio out there, either the company that's just launching a studio or the studio out there that's realizing that they're broken and they need to figure out how to pull things back together, give me that sell to that studio leader who's like, I got to do something and I don't know what it is.

Terence Mahone:
First off, things have to change in studios. It's like we live in a revolutionary technology time with digital photography and things are fast moving. So how do you stay ahead of that? And how do you empower people to stay ahead of that? I think that's part of it. I think that knowing that true, effective, measurable change that improves performance comes directly from the people doing the job and it's proven, I think that is probably the strongest selling point. The second strongest selling point is that empowering your people to be responsible for those changes allows your people to grow in ways that you may not have expected your creative team to be able to grow. So I think it's twofold.

Terence Mahone:
It's, and I hate to say it's process first, but it's probably process first and people second. But it's both process and people in that you're going to improve your process. You're going to hear things. You may not want to hear them, but if you train and you allow that language to be impersonal language of describing processes and roadblocks and desire changes, it's much more palatable and the team is going to, they're not going to feel like they're complaining. They're going to feel like they're empowered to change their process.

Daniel Jester:
That's a great way of putting it. And it's also a really great segue into the next part of this topic that I wanted to touch on, which is managing emotions within your team. And especially if you're a new manager, a new leader coming into an existing team with an updated mandate, let's say, of adopting more and more continuous improvement ideas. There's going to be some challenging emotional feelings from members of your team, because change can be difficult. And even people who have grown up in an e-commerce high volume studio, it can be tough.

Daniel Jester:
One of the things that you said that really resonated with me there is that empowering your team to understand language is one of the coping mechanisms of dealing with some of the sometimes difficult emotions of this constant atmosphere of change. What are some of the other ways that we can empower? And it's not just our teams. I want to be clear about this. Ground level onset teams have these feelings and middle and senior managers have them too. People get defensive about ideas or changes to things for a lot of reasons. So one of the tools that you mentioned is empowering your teams with the vocabulary. Are there other things that we can do to help ease these changing emotions in situations where change is just constantly happening?

Terence Mahone:
I think about my team and I think about the diversity of responses that I get from them. And I have team members that come to me with nothing but problems. And I see them walking up to me and I see the look on their face and I dread what's going to happen next. And it's like, oh, here comes this person and they have a problem. What if you can change that? What if you can turn that around 180 degrees and have team members that come to you with solutions?

Terence Mahone:
And instead of having to solve problems, all you have to do is channel energy. To me, what a relief as a manager to have that kind of a watershed change between dreading what your employees come to you with and cherishing what they come to you with in terms of, hey, it's like I've got a solution. I've got 10 ideas about it. It's like, what a great problem. It's like, if your problem is that you have to calm people down and say, don't make so many changes so fast, don't come to me with all these positive ideas for change, what manager doesn't want to solve that problem?

Daniel Jester:
And one of the things, and this comes from a place of personal experience of mine, and it's going to be a little bit of flattery for you, Terence. One of the things that I think that you are really good at as somebody who's in a management role is being able to identify when somebody just needs to be heard and when somebody actually has a problem that either they need to work on solving or they need your help with solving. Because I can remember times, and I've said this probably on the show.

Daniel Jester:
And I can remember times in the past that some of the most effective managers I had were people who just gave me an opportunity to kind of vent a little bit, and then we whittled away until we figured out what the problem actually was and helped me find a new perspective to figure out how to solve it. So one of the skills I think some of our leadership teams should consider developing is being able to find those moments when you just need to be a good listener for your team and then when you need to actually help them solve the problem.

Terence Mahone:
I think back to my change and I learned so much at Amazon, but I was ready for the change when I changed jobs. And day one, when I started at Farfetch, my manager, I think his final words to me on my first day were listen to learn. I don't know. It's powerful to me. And it's taken me a long time to get to where I don't need to fill space when someone's talking to me. I can just invite their conversation, I can hear what they want, and my only thought is not, how do I respond? Or how do I defend myself? But what's my next question for this person? And not a question to deflect, but how do I keep this conversation going? How do I dig further in? And again, I think that language, that idea of changing language and changing attitudes makes it so much easier if you're not trying to constantly defend, if you don't have people coming to you and saying, well, this is wrong, this is wrong and this is wrong in the studio, but you have people coming to you and saying, what if we did it this way?

Terence Mahone:
Then you can say, how would that affect X? You've got questions about it. So just ask the questions. Don't file them away on paper for you to seek out the answers for later. Ask the person who's coming to you with it and say, what do you think about that? Wouldn't that affect this? Again, you have to do that in a way that doesn't make them feel defensive, doesn't make them feel like your question is a deflection or deprecates what they're coming to you with, but actually just explores.

Daniel Jester:
Right. Absolutely. Yeah. And tone of voice. And the way that we phrase the questions matters in this case a lot. When you're dealing with a team that can have a lot of different various perspectives, people infer a lot from the way that a question is posed, even if the intent was innocent. So one of the skills and tools that we have is thinking of ways of phrasing things, to make sure that we're asking the question we intend to ask and not inviting the opportunity for inference. And obviously there's ownership on both sides of that. Terence, one of the things that I know from my time at Amazon, and I know that you know as well, that is a vitally important part of the idea of continuous improvement in our studio environments is timely and relevant feedback. What are some of the things that we can put in place?

Daniel Jester:
Obviously one-on-ones with your team is a big one. I'm a big believer in engaging your teams at a one-on-one level. We've heard that from other guests on the show. But one of the important things that we do is we find ways to give feedback. And the next kind of step of this is that the feedback needs to be relevant to the particular process that somebody may have been working on, which ultimately means we need to find ways to quantify, was this project that we did to continuously improve our studio, was it successful? How do we structure it so that we're making sure that we're collecting the data that we need and we're giving the feedback in a timely way and just determining that this worked the way that we intended it to?

Terence Mahone:
There's two questions in there. One question is about feedback and another question is about metrics. And I think they're really different. The question about metrics is, again, reflect that back to your team. Empower your team with language, empower your team to be able to understand and build their own metrics. Team member comes to you and they say, I want to make change X. Be prepared to give them the tools that they need to understand what the impact is. Say, we need to build the business case around this. So whatever it is that they may not know, they may not know what the cost per item of the process is that they're working at, so maybe it's time to share that with them, maybe it's time to grow them in that direction. And that gives them the ability to see that the changes or the ownership that you have over outcomes are not emotionally tied to it, but are tied to deliverables.

Terence Mahone:
And I think that from the metric standpoint, again, it's just get out of the way of it. Get the information and the tools into the hands of the people that need to do the work. And if that's a matter of you have a photographer and they're not really skilled at working in Excel spreadsheets, get them some training in Excel spreadsheets. Get them comfortable building a pivot table. Whatever it is, whatever their next step skill is. Again, you're growing your people while you're changing your process. And give them the ability to metricize it, to say, oh, we're going to reduce by, I remember Daniel, you did it. And just do it, a quick win improvement while we were at Amazon. The ability to implement it revolved around proving that it was going to have a positive net effect.

Terence Mahone:
Okay. Do the math. It's like, do we actually have to realize that on the books? It's like, oh, reduce the cycle time by X or whatever we did. Are we going to see it in the bottom line on the books? You probably don't have to prove that afterwards that, oh, I saved $30,000 when I said I was going to save $30,000. But at least be able to say, you think you can save $30,000? Maybe not a huge win in terms of the scale of some studios. Maybe for some studios that would be giant. But again, give people the tools to develop their own metrics and partner them with people who can get them better at it. If that's not you, find people in your organization. Another great opportunity to grow people, to build their network within your company or within your studio. The feedback side of it, a whole different subject. I think that's probably a whole different podcast on how you give timely feedback, how you give situation behavior impact feedback.

Daniel Jester:
All right. Here's a note for the producer, Sean. We're going to have Terence back on as soon as possible. We'll talk about giving feedback to your creative teams. It's another topic, another episode.

Terence Mahone:
I'm ready to go with it. I just put some things in place three weeks ago. And so far, working like a charm. People love it. Now we need sustainability. We need to continue to be able to do it.

Daniel Jester:
I was involved in a couple of different, not huge, process improvement projects at Amazon. One of them was one that we knew was the right thing to do in the studio. It was reconfiguring some lighting so that the teams on set would have fewer things that they'd had to do and would have fewer lighting errors from different variant shots that they had. And I know that sounds vague. I'm sorry, listener, that's as specific as I'm going to get on it. But we knew we needed to fix it because it was a problem. It was really frustrating for the photographers on set who were trying to do this work and trying to do it quickly to meet their goals. It turned out to be very hard to sell as a process improvement that saved any kind of money or was quantified in a way that it hit the bottom line. And an important perspective that I learned from our subject matter expert in the studio on process improvements was that the win didn't need to be dollars on the bottom line.

Daniel Jester:
The win could just be, this is an ergonomic improvement for our teams. And so the metric around that is, without this change, how often is somebody on set having to bend down? And with this change, I don't know. I did the math on it. I said, okay. If you're going to shoot this many handbags in a day, and how many variants do you have to do times this times the number of sets? And it was like in the studio on a given day, people were bending down 500 times. And with this change to the way our set was configured, that went to zero. Well, that's a pretty clear win with a metric that doesn't hit the bottom line, but we knew it was the right thing to do for the sets and for the teams. And it was a huge, the feedback that we got from everybody was that they loved it.

Daniel Jester:
Some people didn't even realize how annoying it was until they didn't have to do it anymore. And those are the kinds of things that I think I would empower our listeners to try to seek those out too. You can look at metrics from different perspectives. If you're having a hard time selling the improvement to somebody who speaks only in very specific languages, meaning around dollars to the bottom line or what have you, you can usually get creative with how you find a metric to support a change that you know is the right thing to do. And in this case, the reason we had to kind of jump through hoops was because it did involve buying some equipment and implementing it onset whenever you get into that. You have a little bit of hurdles to jump over to get somebody to crack open the piggy bank. Do you have anything that you want to touch on with that, Terence? There are a lot of different things you can look at for metrics on why a process improvement is a net positive for your studio.

Terence Mahone:
Little changes are big changes, especially if you do them time and time again. And whether it's ergonomic or whether it's cost, you're going to think, really, how much time? I'm only saving a couple of seconds. But my analogy is, and being an old guy and I used to fly on airplanes, when people could smoke on airplanes. Used to get on the plane and in the armrest was a stainless ash tray. We slowly saw airlines do away with smoking in planes. And then eventually you'd get on a plane and it's like, oh, there's the ashtray, but nobody smokes anymore. Eventually you started to see the ashtrays disappear. If you knew what used to be there, you'd look and there's a little plastic plug that goes in. Maybe the color doesn't quite match.

Terence Mahone:
And it struck me one time. It's like, that didn't exist before. Somebody designed this thing. And somebody bought thousands, tens of thousands of these plugs to fill in where ashtrays were. And then I remember reading a magazine article and they were talking about why that change happened. And someone did the math and they figured out how many ounces, or how many grams, if you like the metric system, a stainless Ash tray weighs versus a plastic plug. And they multiplied at times the number of seats in the plane. And then they figured out how much fuel it took to lift that to 32,000 feet hundreds of times a day on hundreds of planes internationally, and realized that either you could haul that much more cargo or people, or you needed that much less fuel. And I forget what the savings were, but it was some astronomical savings in fuel costs by spending a little bit of money to replace these hopefully non-recycled stainless steel ashtrays with chunks of plastic.

Terence Mahone:
It seems inconsequential because it's like, you can pick this thing up. It's really light. But you multiply it out and multiply it and multiply it a third time, and then suddenly you realize, oh gee, we were hauling cargo we didn't need to haul all the time and we just quit doing it. What's our equivalent of weight saving? Our equivalent of weight saving is to eliminate non-value added touches. If we're doing something that the customer doesn't care about, we should quit doing it. We talk about quality. We have our own ideas as visual creatives about what quality is.

Terence Mahone:
But we should ask, does the customer care about each thing? And if we're doing something that doesn't add value for the customer, figure it out. Maybe you have to ask, maybe you have to do an AB test, whatever that is, to get there. But if you can quit doing that and it does then at the end of the day give you two extra units of productivity or 10 extra units of productivity per set, what a huge win that is. You've given the customers better service. You've only given them what they need and not something extra. And then you give them more of the things that they do want.

Daniel Jester:
Wise words. Wise words from a wise man. Terence, I think that's probably about all the time that we have for this episode. Is there anything that you want to share or that you'd like us to share with our listeners? Does Farfetch have any open positions that we can point people to or just anything else in any way that they can contact you if they want to learn more about anything that we talked about today? Any resources?

Terence Mahone:
Well, I just hired, I think. I don't know. I think I hired for my one open position. We had two people start in the last two weeks and I've got one starting in May. So I think it's a full house. But I love to have conversations. I love to build my network. My wife is in accounting and she's always amazed when I talked to somebody else in this industry. And we realized if I don't know them already, I know someone that knows them. The number of degrees of separation is always small. So yeah, I'm always open to conversation. It doesn't have to go someplace, but I love to build network. I love to learn about other people, their operations, their challenges. You can find me on LinkedIn. My name is relatively distinct. You can probably also find a webpage that has some really outdated photography on it. If you want to know what I once did when I had a camera in my hand. But I'm pretty discoverable, I think.

Daniel Jester:
Well, Terence, thank you so much for your time and for sharing your insight with us. And I can't wait to have you back again. We already have a meeting on your calendar to talk specifically about delivering feedback to your creative team, so look out for that one listeners.

Terence Mahone:
Oh, I love it. I might be much more passionate about that than continuous improvement, and I'm pretty passionate about continuous improvement.

Daniel Jester:
Well, thank you so much for your time. We're looking forward to having you back again. That's it for this episode of the E-commerce Content Creation podcast. Thank you so much to Terence for his time and insight. And thanks to you, the listener, for listening. If you like the show, please give us a rating to help us grow. And if you'd like to get involved in the conversation, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. You can email us at podcast@creativeforce.io, and I'm also on Twitter at Daniel T Jester. The show is produced by Creative Force, edited by Calvin Lands of Calvin Land Sound. Special shout out to Shaun Amir for his work on the show. I'm your host, Daniel Jester. And thank you so much for listening. Until next time, friends.