KPIs, Planning, and Continuous Improvement - 2021 Clip Show with James Lewis

Clip List

• Understanding and Supporting your Creative Teams with Tony Baker of Stitch Fix
• Process vs Product with Scott Willson of Patagonia
• Making the Case for Continuous Improvement with Terence Mahone of Farfetch
• Metrics That Run Your Studio with Todd Schweikert of Rue Gilt Groupe

Full episode transcript

Daniel Jester:
From Creative Force, I'm Daniel Jester and this is the e-commerce content creation podcast.

Daniel Jester:
In this episode, I'm joined by James Lewis, my friend and colleague at Creative Force, and we take a look back at a few moments from the past year on the podcast. James has been with Creative Force since virtually the beginning. And when I first met him, me as a potential Creative Force customer and him manning the Creative Force booth at an industry conference, it was clear to me that James brought the full weight of his studio experience to his work on the platform.

Daniel Jester:
I've been looking forward to having him as a guest on the show as very often our work meetings result in the two of us chatting about our past lives in various studios and debating about what KPIs are most important. We take a listen to a few clips covering topics like KPIs, planning, and continuous improvement and then I ask James to weigh in with some of his thoughts.

James Lewis:
One of the things that is absolutely clear is that if you're going to try and drive improvement, you actually need to know where you are right now. You have to have a consistent and repeatable process to be able to do any kind of improvement activity.

James Lewis:
It isn't always easy, but if you can get people to kind of adopt a process, not the best process, but I used to talk about it as being our process, it's what we do right now. You can get some repeatability in what you're doing and then that creates a framework for someone to then identify, for the team to say, actually, this is getting in the way and I think doing this in a different way is going to drive improvement.

Daniel Jester:
I had a hard time picking which clip to use for this intro so I think we should just jump in and listen to it all.

Daniel Jester:
This is the e-commerce content creation podcast. I am your host, Daniel Jester. Joining me for this episode, my friend and colleague, I can call you a friend I guess. My friend and colleague from Creative Force, James Lewis. James is a senior product specialist with Creative Force. He's been with the team basically since the very beginning. James, welcome to the podcast.

James Lewis:
Thanks for having me Daniel, really excited to be here and I'm prepared to concede friend. I think we've spent enough time together.

Daniel Jester:
Two thirds of a bottle of scotch in Spain and that's probably enough to qualify for friendship.

James Lewis:
Well, it was either going to be friendship or it was going to be the other thing and I'm glad we came down on that side of it.

Daniel Jester:
Yeah, me too. Excellent.

Daniel Jester:
For this episode, James, you and I, we've had tons of amazing podcast worthy conversations just off the cuff over the last year or so of us knowing each other and me learning as much as I can from you about Creative Force and your experiences and creative production in general.

Daniel Jester:
What we're doing for this episode to James is a little bit of a, not quite a year end recap, but call this our end of the year clip show. I've selected four segments from past podcast episodes, and we're going to take a listen to them and then just chat about them and then just get some other perspectives and some things like that. How does that sound James?

James Lewis:
Sounds like a lot of fun Daniel. I'm looking forward to it.

Daniel Jester:
This first clip that we have is going to be Tony Baker from the episode with Tony Baker of Stitch Fix. We're going to go ahead and take a listen to the clip, and then we're going to talk about it on the other end.

Tony Baker:
There's a lot of different philosophies about how to use KPIs in the creative environment. In previous conversations, and maybe even in this one, we've talked about weaponizing the data that you're able to collect off KPIs. I don't know that my approach is the best, but it's worked for me and the teams that I've been involved with before in that it goes back to again, hiring well, building the team that you believe is best for the goals that any studio has, because my philosophy is let's take a photographer or a stylist for instance.

Tony Baker:
Bringing them into these larger, very high paced, very high volume commercial studios. You bring these folks in on their first day and you say, here's why we've hired you. Here's where we see the real benefit of having you on board. But what we're going to do is we're going to put you on this really boring set for one or two or three days so that you can learn the system. It's like really simple imaging, really simple widgets on white kind of thing, because what we want you to do is to learn the capture process and our internal system. Once you're up to speed and we see that you've got this down and we know it's going to be really boring and you're going to have this by lunch, but we want you to really get the muscle memory for this because when we put you over on, let's say if it's more fashion oriented studio and we've brought somebody in because they do women's swimwear really well, or we know they do dresses really well or they do men's higher price point things really well.

Tony Baker:
When we put that creative contributor, whether it be a photographer or a stylist or other roles, we want them to have them muscle memory down for the system so that they concentrate on doing their best work right? The goal is always to get that creative contributor who has mad skills exactly where we need them to be.

Tony Baker:
Now with the KPIs, of course we're tracking KPIs and a lot of other information and even down to which teams were together so that we know, oh, this team works really well, this one wasn't as good as we had hoped, but what we can do is come back to these creative contributors on a regular basis with the KPIs and say, Hey, actually, you know what? We thought that we were going to see the best results putting you on this type of set, but it turns out you excelled over here on this type of set, actually with these two or three other contributors. What do you think about that? It becomes this opportunity for feedback between leadership and the contributors to make sure that they are in a place where they feel fulfilled, but they're also doing the work that the company needs them to do.

Daniel Jester:
There's a couple of things in this clip that I thought that we could kind of chat about. The first thing that stood out to me on this clip from Tony Baker Stitch Fix, is talking about a strategic way to on board a new creative team member by putting them on a set that is relatively straightforward because you need them really to learn the system. So there's that part of it and the second part of it is around using data and KPIs to look for those strong fits. Maybe you have an individual who doesn't know, do they want to be on an on-model set? Do they want to work independently on a tabletop set? Do they work with stylists? Do they work on their own? Using those kind of KPIs to find the right balance between where the individual, where to start them out and then also like where they may have the most impact, but also be happiest. What do you think, James, what are some of your thoughts on this?

James Lewis:
It was really interesting to hear Tony open with that notion of weaponizing KPIs. I think far too often teams, particularly creative teams, are very nervous about data that's being collected and about measures that are being asked of them. There are so many variables in a photo studio and every day is different. I remember vividly just trying to get some sense of what our capacity was from our team across different parts of our assortment and actually having a photographer in tears because the moment you started to talk about capacity in numbers, no matter how much I tried to describe that this was really a benchmark and just something to start us off for our planning and then a baseline for measuring, there was this sense that they were going to be held to it and they knew just how often things would go wrong and their numbers would plummet because of issues that are outside of their control.

James Lewis:
I was really pleased to hear Tony. I really support the idea that you use those numbers and those KPIs to actually support optimal performance and identify where you're doing well. That level of data capture to understand a blending of a team. This particular set worked well because of the photographer stylist model mix, and actually, you change one of those variables and maybe things don't go quite so well. That level of data capture and visibility of what's going on on the set isn't something that everyone's found very easy to get hold of, but to utilize it in that way, I think is very powerful.

Daniel Jester:
The context of that part of the conversation was around that idea of our team's fears of data sometimes is a common one in a photo studio. I think we've all experienced it. Certainly I've experienced it firsthand in several of the studios that I've worked at. You put it perfectly James.

Daniel Jester:
There is a fear that any slip up, any day that you have an off day is going to be a check mark in the poor performance column. No doubt in my mind, there's some studio out there with a misguided manager where that might be true, but I think it really is the trend in the industry, we need to know where we're at in relationship to our goals and that's exactly what KPIs are, we need to have that information. I think using it to match performance to where people can be the most effective is better for everybody, but it's also, there's a communication aspect to it, which is that we're not going to collect this information, I'm not looking at it every minute of every day and the first time you don't shoot seven products in an hour, I'm going to come out and have a chat with you about it. It's not that. It's let's figure out where we need to be to make sure that we're meeting our business needs and let's find where the puzzle pieces fit most perfectly.

James Lewis:
Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. I think it's interesting, as you said, that no one you'd speak to would ever consider using those numbers that way and yet my experience seems to resonate with quite a few people that have had this conversation with their creative people so an interesting kind of dilemma there.

James Lewis:
Undoubtedly, the value of these numbers, the KPIs, the performance in both being able to recognize and reward good performance rather than using it as a stick to beat your teams with is really important. But as you said, when you're producing very high volume and you are delivering to a business need, you have to be able to have some sense of capacity and what the studio's capable of and that's the purpose of those numbers or certainly the numbers I was looking to collect.

Daniel Jester:
Well said James. I think with that, let's move onto our next clip. This clip comes to us from a past episode with Scott Wilson of Patagonia. Let's jump in and take a listen.

Scott Wilson:
For me, the measure of success of a studio is that I have nothing to report when people ask me what's going on in the studio. You ideally want to build a process and get your projects going on those rails. They just stick to the process and your job is making sure that it just stays on the rails. You look for those little rocks and pennies on a trail to see if you're going to derail it. You take care of that before it happens. In doing that, you don't have the flare ups, you don't have the fires, you don't have the chaos that I think a lot of creative leaders. Creative leaders meaning people who don't necessarily know a lot about the ins and outs of production. VPs of creative or creative directors or whatever. I think they tend to see production and progress as lots of fires. That's creativity, right? Things are flaming up. Everyone's running around and that's the creative process. That doesn't work for studios. Studios have to be, there's no ripple, there's no wave.

Daniel Jester:
I really love this analogy from Scott around the idea of production in an e-com studio, especially for a product studio being a set of rails. It's all about anticipating blockages and that if I have no news to report then things are working well and contrasting that with what creative production historically has looked like, which is a producer and several assistants running around putting out minor fires and rescuing cats out of trees while photographers and stylists are doing whatever they can to keep things moving. It can look a lot like chaos. What's your take on this sort of idea of no ripples in the production studio?

James Lewis:
It's a really interesting perspective, particularly given my history and desire to join Creative Force.

James Lewis:
There's no question the sort of traditional e-commerce studio was very much held together with sticky plasters and spreadsheets and that level of chaos and last minute panic because I've got a full team on set and five products to shoot today isn't a sustainable way to run a studio and deliver consistently.

James Lewis:
That's absolutely correct in terms of that you want a really robust and repeatable process that allows the creative teams to focus on delivering brilliant quality and not running around. I think the idea that creativity is actually about problem solving makes a lot of sense, but it shouldn't be about solving problems in your production, it should be actually looking to solve creative problems. How am I going to best communicate to the customer the functional benefits of this product, but also inspire them to want to purchase it? There's a lot to be said for creativity in a robust and structured framework.

Daniel Jester:
You said that so well that I melted in my chair for a moment, because I was just thinking, as you were saying that, that I think we tend to mistake sometimes where the creativity is in this process. You're absolutely right. A lot of people I think maybe mistake the creativity and the problem solving that leads to this sort of creativity around solving problems in their production, the same way that I had not ever heard somebody describe it specifically this way until Scott Wilson said it. You've done the same thing again, which is to say that don't be solving problems in your production. The creativity is solving the problem on set in front of you. The more that you can focus on that, you're going to be a better photographer, a better stylist, a better producer. You can focus actually more on increasing the quality of the end product instead of learning on the fly how to have a production that runs more smoothly.

James Lewis:
Absolutely. There is something for me around that recognition that we are all problem solvers. One of the things I find a lot when we're talking about implementing the system is that people are actually kind of very wedded to the rather ingenious solutions they come up with in their current world and the way they're tying together some IT software and a spreadsheet and a bit of spit and polish, and they found a way of working. Because it's a problem that they've solved locally, there's a real sense of attachment to that, which actually should be applauded. People in studios are incredibly resourceful and adaptable people and they've had to be given the ever growing demands that have been place on them and the very limited tools they've had to work with.

James Lewis:
I think it's super important though, I was thinking about it with the previous clip as well. People don't set out to be a photographer or a stylist or a retoucher to solve the kind of production problems that we put in front of them. They set out to be creative and we must ensure that when we are delivering such a heavy production line to deliver the voracious appetite that our customers websites and social media platforms have, ensure you're delivering that high volume, but still in creating the space for the creativity. That's what is so important and it's what our customers see as the value. It's not just about a numbers game. It's about delivering quality at scale.

Daniel Jester:
Moving on to the next clip. We have a brief clip from my old friend Terence Mahone from his episode, Terence Mahone with Farfetch. We talked a lot about continuous improvement which I know James, is a topic that is near and dear to your heart. Let's take a listen to this clip with Terence Mahone.

Terence Mahone:
First off, things have to change in studios. We live in a revolutionary technology time with digital photography and things are fast moving. How do you stay ahead of that and how do you empower people to stay ahead of that? I think that knowing that true, effective, measurable change that improves performance comes directly from the people doing the job. It's proven. I think that is probably the strongest selling point.

Terence Mahone:
The second strongest selling point is that empowering your people to be responsible for those changes allows your people to grow in ways that you may not have expected your creative team to be able to grow. I think it's twofold. I hate to say it's process first, but it's probably process first and people second, but it's both process and people in that you're going to improve your process. You're going to hear things, you may not want to hear them, but if you train and you allow that language to be impersonal language of describing processes and roadblocks and desired changes, it's much more palatable and the team is, they're not going to feel like they're complaining, they're going to feel like they're empowered to change their process.

Daniel Jester:
A great segue from the last segment where we're talking now in this clip with Terrence about the virtue of continuous improvement where these ideas come from the bottom up. I hate that analogy bottom up because the teams that are working on set in a studio are arguably the most important people, not just on set, but the entire team doing all of that work are arguably the most important people. But the idea is that the continuous improvement ideas are not coming from management, they're coming from the teams who are doing the work, who are experiencing the setbacks and the barriers day after day. The benefit of that is twofold. You get good ideas that actually have a tangible impact on production, but you also are starting to grow your team members in ways that they didn't expect and maybe you didn't expect into areas where they didn't maybe see their career growing that can add a lot of value to them as they progress in their careers and maybe look to pivot into other parts of creative production or other parts of management.

James Lewis:
Yeah, I totally agree. I think that this is a subject that I had my eyes opened up about quite a lot. We've talked before about my love hate relationship with lean and the consultants that were delivering that in my studio.

James Lewis:
Actually it was this philosophy of the fact that the teams actually owned the process and they're the experts in terms of what's going on day to day was a really big influence in changing my opinion. I love the idea that you recognize the expertise of your teams, that they're in the process day to day. There's this really interesting observation about process. Managers think they know what's going on in their processes, they have to have a decent idea, but it's nearly always quite a high level perspective of what's happening and it doesn't have the day to day challenges that the teams know about. If you're going to deliver continuous improvement and really focus on only doing value add tasks. You have to get right down in the dirt and understand all of those small things, the incremental benefits that drive that change to really continue to move forward. I'm very much in agreement on that area.

James Lewis:
I also agree with the fact that it is process first. One of the things that is absolutely clear is that if you're going to try and drive improvement, you actually need to know where you are right now. You have to have a consistent and repeatable process to be able to do any kind of improvement activity. It isn't always easy, but if you can get people to adopt a process, not the best process, but I used to talk about it as being our process, it's what we do right now, you can get some repeatability in what you're doing. Then that creates a framework for someone to then identify, the team to say, actually, this is getting in the way and I think doing this in a different way is going to drive improvement.

James Lewis:
Then you can do a Kaizen event. You can do a very rapid test of that, plan out how you're going to do it and identify very quickly against the benchmark, whether it's working or not and if it's working, let's go do some more of it and if it's not, let's go back to the drawing board and deliver something that will drive that improvement.

James Lewis:
That is very empowering for the teams. Once you get teams feeling that process is something they own rather than being done to them. Ownership is enormously powerful in terms of driving engagement and as you said, giving people the opportunity to develop in areas that they maybe wouldn't necessarily have thought they were going to move into.

Daniel Jester:
You keep giving me pull quote after pull quote James. I'm going to have a hard time deciding what I want to use to intro the episode. The idea of the process being owned by the team as opposed to being done to them. Well said.

Daniel Jester:
Just because I think it's an amusing story and I think we can all relate to it. I think we've all probably had that moment where maybe you have a new senior leader who's visiting your studio and they're touring the studio and they're learning about what everybody does in the studio and you take them as like a mid level studio manager. You take them on set, you show them and they start asking questions and they're like, well, why are you doing this? They said, oh, well, I figured out a while ago that if I don't lick my fingers and hold this wire and then stretch my foot over here to push this button that it doesn't exactly work the way it's supposed to. That's a really embarrassing way to learn about what your teams are doing in response to the things that are going on on set.

Daniel Jester:
The point that I'm trying to make here is that we have to build these structures in place to constantly be soliciting this information from our teams because in the studio they're problem solvers, they're going to do what they need to do to get the shot, to get the asset, to get the job done. We have to build these structures in place as a management team. Build this culture of saying, we need to know the ideas. If something doesn't feel right to you, bubble it up. Don't wait for the new VP of creative to come in the studio and then explain that you have to lick your fingers and touch the live wire and stretch your foot over to hit the button, to make everything work the way it's supposed to.

James Lewis:
Completely. It's one of the things that I learned quite clearly is that sometimes you don't hear about these things because people think you don't want to know. If you're not perceived as being open to hearing the challenges the team are facing, then those kind of things will go under the radar and the guys would just get stuff done. I think that that level of empowerment to say that you own the process and we've given you a framework to change that in a structured way. It then also encourages that surfacing of things that maybe the team can't solve for themselves so there's certain things that are going to be local and that you can come up with ideas and address, but there may be upstream issues that are an input to your process that the team can't control, and that's where the responsibility lies on their managers and leaders to take the problems that aren't in their [inaudible 00:22:00] and address them as well because continuous improvement has to be a organizational commitment, not just the production on the set.

James Lewis:
I think you're totally right. You absolutely have to create a culture where the team are encouraged to surface problems, come with ideas, and you cultivate that by acting on them, giving the team the power to make the change, own the process and demonstrate the value. That's one of the great things about continuous improvement is you start with a benchmark, you have an idea, you test it, you deliver results and then you've got some brilliant objective measures of what you achieved and that's great for people's development, it's great for their PDPs. There's opportunity to reward. It's a very virtuous circle.

Daniel Jester:
Moving on to our last clip. This comes to us from our episode with Todd Schweikert of Rue Gilt group. Let's take a listen to the clip and go from there.

Todd Schweikert:
It was one of the bigger challenges for any studio with high volume productions. For us, it really came down to measuring a lot of different aspects of our business. When we started looking at this, one of the challenges we had was if we knew how much needed to be produced in a single day and we knew how much a photographer and a stylist could work through, on the day that the product would arrive, the styling may be different, different elements would change, and that day would either become lengthened or shortened. Lengthening the day definitely created issues. We would go into overtime. People would plan their day around obviously work and so they would run into some personal challenges. The only way to really compensate for that would be to either stay later or start the next day earlier, or start to try to get creative on how to still work through all that.

Todd Schweikert:
On the flip side, we would have that same issue, but maybe the day would wrap a half a day early. Really that would come down to you're either paying for freelance that isn't being fully utilized or from a project perspective, if we can't anticipate that a team will have a half a day available, we may not put a project in place, knowing that that team was already associated with a photo set. If we knew that that photo set was only going to be a half a day, we could have implemented a project for that team to work on, but because they worked through the product much quicker than anticipated, it would leave the project a bit up in the air and as a studio, that affects our innovation and affects our ability to have some personal projects accomplished as well.

Todd Schweikert:
For us measuring, and I know that's always, where do you start to measure? How do you measure? That's the big topic. We started high level. We start measuring at accessories, handbags, footwear. Then from there, you start to break it into categories. What type of footwear? What brands of footwear? We started to really get down to a more granular level.

Todd Schweikert:
For business reporting, we report at a higher level. We report at that accessories, footwear, handbag, but for our, what I would call associate satisfaction, that granular reporting became really important for that team. We do measure the UPH all the way down to at a brand level across many of our categories. I think when I started, we had 12 categories in general that we measured and now we're at 3,600 because we are at brands. Which seems a bit intense, but it's given us the ability to truly measure a set, to say, this set should take a team eight hours. It's a very complex combination of brands and products mix and it gives us that ability to know how that set should be scheduled.

Todd Schweikert:
What's beneficial is things happen. People call out. Product shows up later than you expect. When we find ourselves in a situation where, when a set was planned to a certain capacity, and if it looks like we're falling off track, we do keep tabs on every hour the team that's on that set, we can see where they're at. We can see at a percentage level, how far are they in their day? If we start to see that the team is falling off track, we already know how many styles by which category we need to move off to another set so that we can start to load balance.

Todd Schweikert:
That started to change how we thought about our day. That started to change how we worked through our product. For Rue Gilt group, we are a flash model business and so our events change, our timelines are tight and we want to make sure we work through product as fast as possible so it's really important for us to fill in every gap that we have whenever we're met with some form of possible delay or other challenge.

Daniel Jester:
In this clip, we hear from Todd about the difference that metrics has made in their ability to basically tactically run their studio from day to day. This harkens back to one of the clips that we heard earlier and talked about around data in a studio.

Daniel Jester:
This is one of the areas where it can really become an important part of selling the studio as a strategic part of the business, is having insight into this data and giving the confidence to your C-suite team that you are running this studio based on this information. I think it's really interesting that he mentioned something like 3,600 categories. I don't know if he was joking around about that, but it wouldn't be that surprising to me if that was a true number, because if you're good at collecting data, you certainly can get down to the point where you know that Louis Vuitton bags maybe take slightly longer than Coach bags to style. Whatever that data is, you can use that to plan, to run your studio, to load balance and to help support your teams, but again, it's not about telling the teams what they should be doing. You're still opening up the door for the unexpected to happen because it will, but you can say this sets maybe a little bit heavy, we need to slide things around a little bit.

James Lewis:
It's absolutely essential what he's describing. That level of granular detail around how long a particular category or a specific product or brand takes to shoot in the studio is crucial to the planning, as you said to the consistent output from the studio, but also the team satisfaction. If you are going to load a set for the day, you don't want to be loading up something that's going to automatically take an hour and a half longer than the guys are planning to work that day. Carryovers are a constant problem. Whenever we go and talk to studios, part of their process is always the first thing in the morning, looking at a carryover and how we're going to manage it. It's absolutely the right way to go.

James Lewis:
It's incredibly difficult to get that level of detail consistently. When we were running our lean project in the studio at John Lewis, we were having to do manual data collection. What wasn't very lean. It very much not value add filling in a spreadsheet. As part of that, setting the standard and then identifying how long something should take and then monitoring how things are going, you give the team that sense of support, so if you know that I'm falling behind, the idea of a downtime log, these kind of variables that come into the studio that they're going to throw you off track. They happen, we all know they happen. You can see that the set's falling behind. You can document what led to that so that becomes a problem that you can try and address and avoid happening going forward, but you can also then let the team support each other. Rather than one set running late and other guys finishing earlier, the notion of being able to load balance and deliver consistently from the studio without burdening the team with massive overtime is a really positive environment for the teams to work in.

James Lewis:
It's also really good for the business. The moment you know what your capacity is, you can start to plan really well for upcoming seasons. You understand capacity. You also understand what you can do when you've got a variable, because you know what your production's looking like in the weeks and months ahead. It really is the foundation of running a high volume studio to actually know what good looks like and being able to deliver against it, but also again, when you're running continuous improvement, you've got the visibility of how those improvement activities are driving that product per hour or products per day, number up, which is great as you said, to demonstrate the value that's coming from the studio.

Daniel Jester:
We're often not talking about insignificant differences between categories or brands eve. At Farfetch, it was known certainly anecdotally and the data bore it out as well that some brands would send us their collection of garments for the season and we just knew what we were getting was going to take four times longer to style. Certain brands, certain features. Think about the difference between a t-shirt and an evening gown. On paper, those are one unit each, but an evening gown is going to take exponentially longer to unpack, prep, style and shoot than a t-shirt will.

James Lewis:
Of course, driving that improvement and creating capacity gives you those opportunity for the personal growth projects as well, which is also super important for the teams.

Daniel Jester:
That's been mentioned a couple of times in some of the clips here that I've not been shy to share on this podcast, that I'm a big fan of. I think this is one of the things that we absolutely should be implementing for our teams. They're working all day in a studio with all the equipment and resources. Let them play around a little bit and grow their skills. It's going to benefit the business and it's going to make your team feel really great about working with you.

James Lewis:
Absolutely.

Daniel Jester:
James, thank you so much for sitting down and listening to these clips. We don't get as much FaceTime together at Creative Force as we used to. We're getting pretty busy, but it's always such a pleasure to talk to you. I'm so happy to finally have you on the podcast. I can't wait for our listeners to hear this episode. I think it's been fantastic.

James Lewis:
Thanks for having me Daniel. I really enjoyed it.

Daniel Jester:
That's it for our holiday season clip show of the podcast. I hope you enjoyed getting a bit of new perspective on some past episodes, or if you're a newer listener, maybe we peaked your interest in some other episodes you haven't listened to yet.

Daniel Jester:
Many thanks to James Lewis for being our guest and thanks to you for listening. The show is produced by Creative Force, edited by Calvin Lands. Special thanks to Shawn O'Meara. I'm your host, Daniel Jester. Until next time, my friends.