Casting in the New Age of E-commerce with Clair Carter-Ginn of Forecast

Key Takeaways

• Some trends in casting we saw pre-pandemic, have accelerated now that studios are beginning to open up again.
• Content planning will be a huge benefit, with so many micro-channels of marketing all with specific content needs.
• Talent usage is as important as ever with so many diverse channels for content. Buy more usage than you think you may need.
• Influencer marketing and using relatable talent to share more than just product assets will continue to be a strategy, but bringing back more art director control as in person shoots start up.
• Diversity continues to be an important effort in casting, even with complicated sample availability. More and more brands are following the lead of other industries and making budgets to include more diverse talent.

Links & Resources

• Clair Carter-Finn on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/claircg/
• Forecast Agency's Website: https://www.forecastagency.co.uk/
• Forecast Agency on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/forecastagency/
• Forecast Agency on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/forecastagency/
• Creative Production Day by Henry Stewart Events: https://www.henrystewartconferences.com/events/creative-production-day

Glossary

• DE&I - Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion
• Usage - Modeling contracts usually have stipulations about how and where an image with the model can be used. Print and Ad Campaigns sometimes costs more than digital or social. This is negotiated up front as "usage"
• Influencer Marketing - Using an individual with social media clout and/or large followings to represent a brand, not only in images but usually inclusive of their personality as well.
• Law & Order - A long running fictional television series depicting the criminal justice system in NYC, known for its specific format, style, and easily recognizable intro and bumper sound effects

Full episode transcript

Daniel Jester:
From Creative Force, I'm Daniel Jester. And this is the E-commerce Content Creation Podcast. My guest for this episode is Clair Carter-Ginn of Forecast, a London based casting and consulting agency that helps your brand craft its own future through talent and creative. We talk about the current state of casting for e-commerce and a little about what brands should be thinking about as we collectively awaken post pandemic.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
The more usage you can buy up front, even if it seems more expensive, the better off you are later on when you want to use it in 12 places.

Daniel Jester:
This is a great conversation. So I'll keep this part short. If you like the show, please subscribe and leave a review if possible. Tell a coworker even. We also ask that you join us in the conversation and I'll tell you how to do that, but you got to stick around to the end. Now, let's jump in.

Daniel Jester:
This is the E-commerce Content Creation podcast. I am your host, Daniel Jester. And joining me on the episode today is Clair Carter-Ginn of the Forecast agency. Clair, welcome to the show.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
Thank you so much for having me Daniel. It's a pleasure to be here.

Daniel Jester:
So Clair, we invited you on the show today to talk a little bit about what your agency does, what Forecast does, which is casting for retail and e-commerce. There's a lot of things that we're going to touch on there, but I wanted to give the audience a little bit of insight into who you are, what your background is. So why don't you give us that rundown and then we'll jump into casting for e-commerce.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
Sounds great. As you said, my name is Clair Carter-Ginn, and I have a very interesting, if I might say, background in retail and fashion. I'm a partner at Forecast and we consult on all things creative and studio operations, as well as casting for variety of fashion and retail clients, everything from big box retailers to high street to high-end. I have worked with Michael Kors, Louis Vuitton, Gap, Target and a whole bunch of more fabulous retailers and brands as I mentioned. I actually started as a copywriter back in the day and then moved into shoot production by accident. We were doing a photo shoot for my much beloved, but gone Marshall Fields in Chicago, and the photo shoot producer had moved to LA to become an actor on a soap opera.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
So I was a copywriter on the project and I said, "Oh, I know how to produce a photo shoot. I'll trial by fire." So I just jumped in and eventually that road took me into leadership around content strategy and creation. Before I joined Forecast, I was VP of creative and studio ops at Michael Kors overseeing our in-house agency and external and internal photo teams.

Daniel Jester:
It's so funny because it's such a common thread with people that we talked to for this show and just our colleagues in the industry about people who fell into it by accident.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes.

Daniel Jester:
I count myself among them and there's been other people interviewed for this show who say they came in through the back door, the side door, and it's like, that's just how you... This industry is so young and obviously creative and creative production has been around for a very long time, but specifically the way that reproduce e-commerce shoots today, it's really a new industry that's quite young. So casting for retail, for e-commerce, for all of these things, we've seen as content needs have grown and grown and grown between e-commerce taking so much more of the market share than we anticipated so quickly in the last few years, and then also the advent of social and numerous different channels that require their own content.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
Yes.

Daniel Jester:
You can repurpose assets a lot of the time, but you really need to have a strategy for Instagram. You need to have a strategy for paid search and all of those things.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
Absolutely.

Daniel Jester:
So I guess I'm going to start high level kind of ambiguous. What have you learned over the years about just the evolution of casting for your campaigns from the time when it was a little bit more straight forward to now where you're thinking about all of these little micro channels of advertisement?

Clair Carter-Ginn:
I think that's a great place to start, and I actually had a conversation recently with Luisa Wills of PVH. I'm actually interviewing her at Henry Steward events Creative Production Day in May, I think it's May 13th, for those of you who are interested. And we were talking about really how much has changed in the last year, but even how much has changed in the last 20 years and how we shoot. She and I have been in the industry long enough that we remember when we shot on film. And I was saying that I remembered my first shoot, I was at Ann Taylor at the time, and we were shooting with Patrick Demarchelier and he did not even shoot a whole roll of film and probably only half the audience is gasping right now, but everybody my age is, and they go, "Less than a roll of film. How could he possibly have gotten the shot?"

Clair Carter-Ginn:
But we used to have to cover off that way. And I think that there was so much more planning involved at that point, because we had to know how many ways do we have to capture this item? Okay. There are seven color ways and we have to capture each one, or this handbag is only available in China, so we have to make sure that we capture this look on Linda Evangelista, actually I remember this particular shoot with this handbag and then with a different handbag, and all of that was very well mapped out. And I think with the advent of digital photography, it's given us so much opportunity to be a little bit more loose, we're still planning of course, but we also can do what Luisa put well, which is shoot and see, or what I call, show up and shoot, which is basically you go and you capture as much as you can. You might get some crazy behind the scenes stuff, you might get 10 phenomenal campaign photos, and then you go back to the office and you'll figure out how to use it.

Daniel Jester:
Right.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
But I feel like that, especially with COVID, has shifted completely. We're seeing a lot more brands and retailers. We're not doing a shoot with 50 people on set. You don't have the spectators that you used to have where half of the marketing department shows up or 10 merchants show up and say, "We can't have that shoe with that dress." You really have to be strategic back when you're doing your shoot planning. So the content strategy around what are our needs, as you said, what are our needs around social media versus campaign, versus in store, versus outdoors, the list goes on and on. We need to know what we're capturing for everything rather than, "Here's what we hope we're going to be able to get and we'll figure out how to use it."

Clair Carter-Ginn:
I think that something else that has definitely benefited from this is that as we look at planning the shoot in a deeper way before we go out to shoot, we can also manage the usage for the talent. And this is very helpful, and I'm sure your audience knows this, but it's always a great reminder that the more usage you can buy up front, even if it seems more expensive, the better off you are later on when you want to use it in 12 places.

Daniel Jester:
Right.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
When you realize that you captured the one shot that you really need for social, for the new campaign, and you didn't have usage, get it. Now, I think we've all heard the stories about, say for example, they were filming Tiger Woods bouncing a ball and I know nothing about golf so I don't know, a 7 iron on the Brooklyn bridge and a woman there-

Daniel Jester:
[crosstalk 00:07:01]

Clair Carter-Ginn:
Exactly, exactly. And a woman ran by, it was like six in the morning, they're out shooting. And he goes, "Hey." And she's like, "Hi." She saw herself in the ad. She happened to work in advertising. So she knew that they've already put the ad on TV. She can ask for beaucoup. But I think that, just getting back to my point, you can really be thoughtful and strategic about your planning in terms of talent, and usage and where you're putting your budget dollars if you are clear on what the shots are, you want to get upfront.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
And tying into that, just to kind of segue into what COVID has changed, one of the biggest things we've seen again, as I just mentioned a few minutes ago is a shift from having these enormous photo shoots with a great many people to having to really shrink down to bare essentials and in some cases doing remote work, remote art direction and really keeping a lean team. So one of the trends that we're seeing in casting is brands not only being very thoughtful about planning, but then planning the outfits on particular talent and making sure that they book the talent for that day or a couple of days, because they're not able to, say, have four models a day with two hair and makeup artists and assistants, et cetera.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
You've really got to keep it tight. And I think that really shows the planning upfront is really effecting the shots that we get on the back end. And I think that that is one thing that we're seeing from COVID is being agile and being able to pivot as needed with your content creation. But really that is a trend that we're seeing as if you can be more planful upfront with the strategy, the better off you'll be when you get to the shoot. And I think that goes for campaign as much as it does for a day of e-com shoots.

Daniel Jester:
One of the things I wanted to ask you about and get your insight into what you're seeing out there is prior to COVID we were seeing, at the studio that I was at, we were seeing brands who were seeking out. They still book models from some of the agencies here in LA, but they were also looking specifically for a certain type of social media influencer. And that influencer's persona on their Instagram became as much a part of the campaign for them as the images that we produce were, if you get what I'm saying.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
Yes.

Daniel Jester:
It wasn't just that that person was there in the apparel on set, getting the shots done. She was Instagramming behind the scenes in the moment they become a personality as part of the campaign. And I think now post COVID, there are some brands that pivoted 100% to saying, "Hey, we're going to send you a top and just shoot some stuff around your house and send us what you have." What are you kind of seeing out there in terms of the talent going more from just being part of the imagery and the assets to being sort of a personality that supports the brand?

Clair Carter-Ginn:
Yes. And that's a trend that we saw before COVID was, and this is something that my team at Michael Kors did a lot around was really negotiating that upfront, especially with the bigger models, they were really the face of the campaign was making sure that we had a certain number of Instagram posts from them. So the models to your point, like a celebrity or like influencers, that was a big part of the puzzle was that they were going to post themselves behind the scenes. There was one particular shoot that I was on some years back where after dinner the model decided to go for a swim and she just happened to put on one of the swimsuits that we had been shooting on her during the day. And so of course I'm like, "Sh my God, where's the photographer. Let's drag them down to the pool. Let's capture as many images as possible for social of this very authentic organic moment."

Clair Carter-Ginn:
And of course I had to call her agent and say, "Is this okay?" But we got okay and we went for it and it really became some of the highlights because we got this very authentic, engaging, I guess, emotionally driven aspirational imagery that was very different than a very set up shot. And I do think that there is, especially with millennials and Gen Z a desire to see more than just, "Hi. Here, I am looking fabulous in this pair of pants. Let me show you how I look from the front side and back," which is extremely essential. And everybody that I speak to we're still trying to capture everything for PDP, but there's also this sense of the personality of the talent.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
And I actually was having a conversation with Stewart Honeyman from PrettyLittleThing, and they're a very innovative company and obviously they tend to have a younger demographic, but they have always been forward thinking about how they're handling talent. And that goes from a diversity standpoint, all the way to, their priority as a brand is to make sure that people feel good in their skin and their bodies. So providing imagery and content that reflects that, whether it's from the campaign level or down to social. Again, if it's a model in the campaign or if it's user generated content that they're reposting on social. Really kind of engaging. And I think that's where successful brands will be going forward is having a mix. You referenced what I call shoot at home, which is basically sending the product to a model, in some cases we saw the trend of models who happen to live with photographers or stylists putting together shoots by themselves.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
I think-

Daniel Jester:
Turns out quite common in the industry.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Stewart had said on the webinar we did a few months ago, they actually send things home with the employees and they just shot them in their house. I'm like, "Perfect. The employees, what a great way to highlight your own talent pool too." We're seeing less of that now than we were a year ago. I think that now that studios are opening up, you have less control over the lighting, over the art direction. Let's face it, we can't necessarily get all the views or capture the detail that we need to do in studio. So I think that the shoot at home, or giving the product to influencers, compliments the traditional photography that we're still doing in studio that needs to happen in order to highlight the product and frankly, to sell the product.

Daniel Jester:
Clair, you mentioned diversity in there, and I definitely want to use that segue coming up here in a minute, but I wanted to ask you really quickly related to brands that are bringing in more user-generated content or better yet, bringing in talent whose personality is intended to be part of the campaign. Do you have anything that you can share from people that you've talked to or clients of Forecast who have seen improved engagement or maybe social taking more of the share of their sales as a result of these types of campaigns?

Clair Carter-Ginn:
I think it's definitely a trend that we're seeing. I will say that I think it tends to be with brands that have a younger audience or wider audience. If your audience is on social media more often, you're bound to have more engagement in that type of content. Scott Lux from alice + olivia had said on the Creative Force podcast that we did back in January, that they were doing more TikTok content than they ever thought that they would. And I thought, "Listen, Olivia, that's really interesting because I think of that as a women's brand that has a lot of legs with basically age 20 to probably age 50."

Clair Carter-Ginn:
But TikTok, interesting. It's just interesting that people see as they look at their consumer and I think it, let's face it, it all goes back to knowing your audience.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
I think the brands for a long time have always had driven that part of the conversation. And I think now, especially with social, it's a great way to bring your customers into the conversation. What kind of content do they want to see? What are they reacting to? What are they saying is doing well? And I think that some of it is trial and error. I hate to say we've got to throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks, but in some ways we do now, because that mentality of, "Well, this is the way we've always done it," just doesn't float in the same way, because the way we shop has shifted dramatically, if not completely in the last year. So I think understanding what your consumer wants is one of the first things you can do before you try to decide what your content strategy should be.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
Who's your consumer, where are they shopping, what do they want to see, and engage with them. One thing we're seeing is more of what I'd call the mid to high level brands, looking to having focus groups and doing A/B testing with emails and seeing what people are responding to. And I know we're still all playing a little bit of the game of catch-up in terms of trying to create content after we've been on hold for so long, but as we catch up and we can start being more strategic, I really think taking the time to understand and ask, or look at the data, or look at the metrics that you have. And if you don't have anything, see if there's a vendor or a partner that you're working with that can help you find that, to kind of figure out what it is that people want. Because for so long it was, well, there's an ad in Vogue and there's a catalog that goes out and it's like, "Nope, we're taking it back to the beginning."

Clair Carter-Ginn:
And I do think that brands that have the most success with consumers are the ones that have that 360 vision, which is there's a company out of Duluth, Minnesota called Maurices, which is a young women's brand that does a great job of this. They shoot a campaign, they have lifestyle photography, they've got editorial for the website and PDP, but then they have a very engaged audience and they really highlight that. people love to style themselves and be featured. And Target store is doing the same thing I've seen where on the PDP page they'll show all of the photography from the studio and then they'll intersperse a campaign shot, they'll intersperse a shot of an influencer or a regular person who posted online how they're styling the look. And I think styling the look and how real people are styling the look is definitely something that we will see a greater ROI on and even more of a boom for a lot of brands.

Daniel Jester:
I'm also thinking of some of the fast fashion brands out there, and I'm probably not pronouncing this right. I've actually never heard it said out loud, but a retailer like Zaful, a huge part of their listings online is user images and reviews and the images that go along with those reviews. And I know this because a few years ago my wife bought a couple of swimsuits from them and it was like, "Here's this swimsuit, but I wore it as a bodysuit," with some pants or some shorts and things like that. And that stuff seems to really resonate with a certain generation of consumer. You touched on earlier on diversity and this is something that I really want to discuss with you and learn from what you're seeing and trends are. We know that representation in advertising makes a difference to people.

Daniel Jester:
We also know that it presents really unique challenges to an actual production. So it can be difficult enough to get a single sample in the right size for a single model. When you're talking about getting pre-launch samples of apparel in multiple sizes for multiple models, obviously you're compounding the complexity of that. So I'd love to know from you, there's been quite a push in recent years for diversity and inclusion in advertising and the way that we put our content out there as retailers, how are some of these brands overcoming some of the complexities of that? And are we seeing tangible benefits? I don't want to be callous about it because like I said, we understand that representation does matter to people. But what are the benefits to the retailer that we're seeing?

Clair Carter-Ginn:
I called it before the sample conundrum is always one of the biggest sticklers when it comes to size diversity for a brand at the e-commerce content level. And what we are seeing is that more brands have put the budget aside and it's been an initiative they've been working on for several years and they have the budget and they're getting generally two sample sizes. So if it's a brand that has, let's say 0 to 24 where they're landing, they may be shooting a size 2,4 and they may be shooting a size 12, 14. We're seeing a lot more 16, 18 as well. But I think it really does come down to samples. And as we call them the sort of the mid range samples, 6 to 10 are still an issue for clothing brands. But there also are great brands, like say Famous Footwear, obviously, which does shoes when they cast they're restricted by the shoe size, which many times for women the sample size is a six.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
And if you have a size 6 foot, as a woman you're generally around 5'2", not to say they always are, but it's harder to find taller models with that size foot. So you're casting shifts, but they have a unique opportunity in that really when the stylists go to style the models, they can pull any sort of clothing from wherever those they're pulling from, they shop specifically for that model. So there are, I think there are retailers that are challenged by sample size from a clothing size standpoint and there are retailers that are challenged from a different size. And then of course, beauty brands and hair brands and some innovative intimates brands have been ahead of the trends and really making products for a wider base of skin tones, intimates brands making products or shooting imagery on different size models and being size inclusive.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
I think that's somewhere that we've seen the trends we're seeing now with apparel started in beauty. And I think that that includes also age and gender diversity. I think Sephora and MAC were very early marketers in this area. And it was one of the great things about walking into one of their stores is that the amazingly huge in store signage had models that were, it was very inclusive from an ethics standpoint, an age standpoint and the size standpoint. I think that was one of the beautiful things is that beauty products transcend. So it's been interesting to see the shift and I feel like some of the big box retailers like Walmart and Target were also ahead of the game. And I think when you can also shoot products that aren't sized restrictive, i.e. if you're shooting a family sitting out in their backyard having a picnic, well, you can have anybody in that shot that you want.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
And that's also where we're seeing an increase in differently able talent, which is fantastic. We would love to see more of it. And I think that we will, and there will be more requests for differently able talent as brands start to make more adaptive clothing. So that's something where we're seeing progress and we're seeing brands where their talent strategy is very... they're looking to the future. They understand that this isn't just a flash in the pan moment. This is something that they've been serious about for some years and will continue to do so, continue to be that. So I think that's one piece of it. Every brand that embraces the importance of diversity and inclusion sees a win. Because I think there was the idea in the past and we may be talking about the 1970s at this point, but there was an idea that people wanted to see people like themselves.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
And there's something to that I'm sure on some level somewhere, but really what people want to see is the diversity and the inclusion. I've had a number of conversations with people of a variety of ages over the last year about while we're dealing with all of the social injustice and working towards more equality in America and in the world, how people are feeling about advertising and marketing, because at the end of the day, people have to sell some product. But if they can represent for a broader audience, especially as we go to a more global marketplace with digital transformation. Let's face it, there are more companies that are now shipping and selling around the globe than there ever were before, which I think also brings up the issue of localization and how that affects talent is something that we've seen is that there's an increase in need to find talent for local campaigns and local holidays.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
So Singles' Day, Diwali, Chinese New Year, Boxing Day, some of these holidays that maybe say, an American based company would not have traditionally advertised or marketed to, this is a big deal. And I know that if your studio is in LA, but you're doing a shoot for Diwali, then you need a stylist who understands that. So there's a different level of talent that's also important as well. So as I've spoken with friends who are senior agents at modeling agencies, one of the things that comes up is there is a greater request for diverse talent on a more specific standpoint. I think there was a time when "Asian model" could mean a lot of things. And now people are very specific, "I'm looking for Japanese model," "I'm looking for a South Korean model," "I'm looking for someone who can do that."

Clair Carter-Ginn:
And I think that we're seeing more clients, like there was a food delivery company that needed to shoot in Miami during COVID because the photographer was in Miami, but the campaign was going to run in Africa. So we had to find a very specific type of model for them to represent that local market. And I think we've all seen it on TV where you've seen an ad for Fanta or Mentos, and you're like, "Wow, those are really Scandinavian people."

Clair Carter-Ginn:
You can tell that that ad might not have been originally a US ad. It was made somewhere else and then brought over. And I always think those are so much fun to see because it's like watching a British mystery on PBS. You're like, "Oh, what are they eating? That looks really interesting." It's kind of a different view.

Daniel Jester:
It is, yeah.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
It's kind of a view that maybe some of us did not have in the past and now have access to. And I think that brands that can bring that to the table for their consumers are ahead of the game and it's going to be a win-win for everybody. So just embrace it.

Daniel Jester:
Right. And you actually brought up a great point, which is that it doesn't begin and end with on-camera talent, but representation and perspectives and different points of view in your crew as well, can be very important to the way that the entire production is handled from whether it's a stylist or a photographer. Hair and makeup is a big one because there are lots of different types of hair. There's lots of different types of skin, both in color of the skin, but also just like the actual skin itself and the way that it responds to the application of makeup. And I have some very close friends that are hair and makeup people who spend a lot of time working with hairstyles other than their own style of hair, which is big. And we can also avoid, I don't want to touch on this for too long, but there have definitely been in the past some significant, I'll be very generous and call them miscommunications, when you pairing a model with, let's say a graphic tee that maybe says something.

Daniel Jester:
The common logic would say that if there was a more diverse crew involved, that somebody maybe could have pointed out that this could be interpreted in a way not intended by the team on set. So that's a lesson that actually really stuck out with me in terms of making sure that you are not just bringing in crews. You want to bring in a crew that works really well together, but you also want to make sure that you're diversifying your perspectives so that you're getting input from these types of things and making sure that a quick on the fly pairing of a tee with a certain model doesn't end up as something that goes viral on Twitter.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative) Absolutely.

Daniel Jester:
... and gets misinterpreted. It's a very rich vein of things that we can talk about here, Clair, but we're kind of running up on time. If our listeners would like to get a hold of you and connect with you and talk about some of these things, where can they find you?

Clair Carter-Ginn:
Well, I'm everywhere. I joke. I'm on social media, obviously. You can check out our Instagram feed where we put all of our latest images from shoots we've worked on. We're forecastagency on Instagram. We're also forecastagency.co.uk. We are London based company. And also I'm on LinkedIn and the full name is on there, you can't miss.

Daniel Jester:
Excellent. And we'll definitely include in the show notes for our listeners some links to you. The other thing is there's an upcoming Creative Operations Conference that you are... Well, I'll let you explain because I'm not exactly sure what your particular... I want to get your title right. So I'm not going to guess.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
Okay. Well, [inaudible 00:27:02] is one of them. [inaudible 00:27:04] of course. But we actually, Henry Stewart very exciting, Henry Stewart just announced the Festival of Creative Operations, which will be happening in October, October 5th. It will be a virtual conference and it will have creative ops, design ops and I will be chairing the photo studio operations track, which I'm very excited about.

Daniel Jester:
Amazing.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
And actually I'd love to hear from people on what sort of content they'd love to see. Definitely, I know Henry Stewart's looking for speakers and panelists, so please reach out if you're interested. I think it's going to be an amazing event. It's something that we've been missing in the industry, and I'm very excited to help create some content for that, that I think will be very meaningful and really interesting and engaging for the audience.

Daniel Jester:
Wonderful. And we'll definitely include information in the show notes and when this episode airs. Clair, thank you so much for your insights. And obviously there's a ton of things that you can share your expertise with us on. So we look forward to being able to have you back on the show to talk about some of these things. But really, really enjoyed the conversation today around talent and diversity, and something's going on behind you.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
Oh my god.

Daniel Jester:
We can't ignore it anymore.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
I'm so sorry.

Daniel Jester:
No, it's okay.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
It's kind of background noise. I hate to say that. I am based in New York, I live in an apartment and there is no quiet room in this house.

Daniel Jester:
A little treat for our listeners, I love it. A little bit of local flavor.

Clair Carter-Ginn:
Yeah, exactly. Just pretend it's Law and Order. And so if you could do the outro [inaudible 00:28:34], that'd be great.

Daniel Jester:
Yeah. Amazing. Well, Clair, thank you so much for-

Clair Carter-Ginn:
Thank you. I appreciate it.

Daniel Jester:
... being on the show and I'm looking forward to everything to come.

Daniel Jester:
That's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. As this episode goes live we're only a couple of days away from Creative Production Day on May 13 that Clair mentioned during the show. So check out the show notes on how to register for that online event. As I mentioned at the top of the show, we want you to be a part of the conversation. So give us your thoughts. Tell us your stories. You can reach us via email at podcasttocreativeforce.io, or you can find me on LinkedIn. The show is produced by Creative Force, edited by Calvin [inaudible 00:29:16], special thanks to Sean O'Meara and my guest Clair Carter-Ginn. I'm Daniel Jester, until next time my friends.